From cheungtifan at gmail.com  Thu May  1 01:48:28 2008
From: cheungtifan at gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 01:48:28 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5q2j5byP5ZCv5Yqo4oCc5ZOy5oCd?=
	=?utf-8?b?6Ieq55Sx6L2v5Lu25Zu+5Lmm4oCd6K6h5YiS?=
In-Reply-To: <48187557.2050607@zeuux.org>
References: <48159E71.3040009@zeuux.org>
	<652870f40804290518y56aa334erd259a622cd933436@mail.gmail.com>
	<48171270.5020304@zeuux.org>
	<5fdc2ee10804300459m3b6ab9abt9a74bafc4ee961bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48187557.2050607@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10804301048l7471cehb2aa1e884f346a68@mail.gmail.com>

??????????????6?4??????...??????
On 4/30/08, Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org> wrote:
>
> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>
>  Alex Zhang ??:
>  ??????????????????????????????????????????
> Alex,Metsikao,Lancelot
>
> On 4/29/08, Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org> wrote:
>
>
>  ??????????????"????????"?
>
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ???
>
>
>
> Meng Yu ??:
>
>
>  ??????? ^_^
> ??????
>
> 2008/4/28 Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>:
>
>
> ??????????0????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>
>
>
>  http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-handbook.cn.html
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
>


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From peng.kyo at gmail.com  Sat May  3 10:47:27 2008
From: peng.kyo at gmail.com (J. Peng)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 10:47:27 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?gb2312?b?urrT7w==?=
In-Reply-To: <20080502213748.GB6040@ubuntu>
References: <4816DB06.7060007@Sun.COM>
	<b3a8e37e0804290133k535d1149s63a1cfd32ccb4060@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080502213748.GB6040@ubuntu>
Message-ID: <18c1e5f20805021947s772f3f20y5c03f5fb545cf623@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/3 Jianjun Kong <kongjianjun at gmail.com>:

>
>  ??????????????????????
>

???GZ???????????, ?????????????????, ?????????.
?????????????, ??????,???,?????????.???????????.


-- 
J. Peng - Peng.Kyo at Gmail.com
Professional Chinese Squid supports
http://SquidCN.spaces.live.com/

From zhangweiwu at realss.com  Sun May  4 15:06:48 2008
From: zhangweiwu at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 15:06:48 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?546L5a6X5rGJ5a2X5L2T5LqJ6K6u5oOF5Ya1?=
	=?utf-8?b?77yf?=
Message-ID: <481D6088.8010907@realss.com>

???
http://www.shsh.ylc.edu.tw/~taichis/wp/20050812/343
<http://www.shsh.ylc.edu.tw/%7Etaichis/wp/20050812/343>

????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
??????

????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
?????????

-- 
Real Softservice

Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 135 9950 2413
http://www.realss.com



From Alex.Peng at Sun.COM  Mon May  5 15:31:16 2008
From: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM (Jian-xiang Alex Peng)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:31:16 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?gb2312?b?z7K7tsr90ae1xMXz09G/tLn9wLQgIDop?=
Message-ID: <481EB7C4.3090001@sun.com>

http://finmath.com/

From qingran at zeuux.org  Mon May  5 16:25:36 2008
From: qingran at zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:25:36 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5Zac5qyi5pWw5a2m55qE5pyL5Y+L55yL6L+H?=
 =?utf-8?b?5p2lICA6KQ==?=
In-Reply-To: <481EB7C4.3090001@sun.com>
References: <481EB7C4.3090001@sun.com>
Message-ID: <481EC480.1030806@zeuux.org>

Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> http://finmath.com/
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>
>   
?????

-- 
???
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From bill at zeuux.org  Mon May  5 17:23:48 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:23:48 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5Zac5qyi5pWw5a2m55qE5pyL5Y+L55yL6L+H?=
 =?utf-8?b?5p2lICA6KQ==?=
In-Reply-To: <481EC480.1030806@zeuux.org>
References: <481EB7C4.3090001@sun.com> <481EC480.1030806@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <481ED224.3000208@zeuux.org>

????????????????????

????????????????????Alex????????

Xia Qingran ??:
> Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
>   
>> http://finmath.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>
>>   
>>     
> ?????
>
>   
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From bill at zeuux.org  Mon May  5 20:09:13 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 20:09:13 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?5YWz5LqO5ZOy5oCd6YKu5Lu25YiX6KGo?=
Message-ID: <481EF8E9.5020701@zeuux.org>

????

?????????????????????????????????
http://www.zeuux.org/community/mailing-list.cn.html

???????????????????????????????????? 
??????????

???????????????????????????????????? 
??????????zeuux-press at zeuux.org?????


???
????????

From bill at zeuux.org  Mon May  5 20:56:18 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 20:56:18 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?6K+35aSn5a625biu5Yqp5a6h6ZiF44CK5ZOy?=
 =?utf-8?b?5oCd6Ieq55Sx6L2v5Lu25omL5YaM44CL?=
Message-ID: <481F03F2.1040208@zeuux.org>

????

????????????????????
http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-press.cn.html

???????????????????????????????????? 
??????????????????????????4????????? 
?????????????????????????

??????????
http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-handbook.cn.html

??????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
??????????????????????

????????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
????????????????????????????????????? 
??????????????????????????????????

??????????????????????????????????? 
zeuux-press at zeuux.org????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????


happy hacking!

???
????????


From zhangweiwu at realss.com  Mon May  5 21:26:08 2008
From: zhangweiwu at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 21:26:08 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?5YWz5LqO5ZOy5oCd6YKu5Lu25YiX6KGo?=
In-Reply-To: <481EF8E9.5020701@zeuux.org>
References: <481EF8E9.5020701@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <481F0AF0.6090209@realss.com>

Bill Xu wrote:
> ????
>
> ?????????????????????????????????
> http://www.zeuux.org/community/mailing-list.cn.html
>
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ??????????
>
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ??????????zeuux-press at zeuux.org?????
>
>   

????????????????????????????????????
???????

-- 
Real Softservice

Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 135 9950 2413
http://www.realss.com


From qingran at zeuux.org  Mon May  5 23:59:21 2008
From: qingran at zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 23:59:21 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?gb2312?b?1dzLvMmzwfqjrbXaNMbao60yMDA4xOo11MIx?=
 =?gb2312?b?MMjVo63QwsDLzfgg1vfM4qO6RXh0NCDOxLz+z7XNs73pydw=?=
In-Reply-To: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>

Bill Xu wrote:
> ????
>
> ????4??????????????????????
>
> Coly????????????????ext4???????????????? 
> ????????????????????????????????????
>
>
>       ??????4??2008?5?10?????
>
>     * ???Ext4 ??????
>       <http://www.zeuux.org/pub/zeuux-monthly-3-200803-ext4-introduction.pdf>
>     * ???
>           o Coly Li <http://www.mlxos.org/>?Linux ??????????
>             ?Ext4?ocfs2???????????OpenIPMI?YaST?????
>             ??SuSE Labs?? <http://en.opensuse.org/User:Colyli>???
>             ?Novell <http://www.novell.com/linux/>?
>     * ????Ext4??????Linux
>     * ???OpenSuse???
>     * ???2008?5?10??????14?00?17?00?
>     * ?????? ??? ?????? 15? ?????????
>       <http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/MapSinaBus>?*?????20??
>       ???????15??????*
>     * ?????????????????????????????????
>       ??????????
>     * ????????138 1141 0476
>     * ???Coly Li <http://www.mlxos.org/>?OpenSuSe.org
>       <http://www.opensuse.org>?????
>
>
> ???http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-salon.cn.html
>
>
> ???
> ????????
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
??6??????????????????? :D

-- 
???
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From arthur5933 at gmail.com  Tue May  6 09:29:47 2008
From: arthur5933 at gmail.com (arthur wang)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 09:29:47 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
	=?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCA=?=
	=?utf-8?b?5paH5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <55b9903b0805051805o62144e9fh3fabb36ea3700350@mail.gmail.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
	<55b9903b0805051805o62144e9fh3fabb36ea3700350@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15ef8d370805051829r45e0865dxfab142d57cdd2a60@mail.gmail.com>

hamo.by
???

???????????????????????"?????????????"????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
???


?08-5-6?Hamo <hamo.by at gmail.com> ???
>
> ???????????????????ext4??????????????????????????
>
> On 5/5/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote:
> > Bill Xu wrote:
> > > ????
> > >
> > > ????4??????????????????????
> > >
> > > Coly????????????????ext4????????????????
> > > ????????????????????????????????????
> > >
> > >
> > >       ??????4??2008?5?10?????
> > >
> > >     * ???Ext4 ??????
> > >
> > <http://www.zeuux.org/pub/zeuux-monthly-3-200803-ext4-introduction.pdf>
> > >     * ???
> > >           o Coly Li <http://www.mlxos.org/>?Linux ??????????
> > >             ?Ext4?ocfs2???????????OpenIPMI?YaST?????
> > >             ??SuSE Labs?? <http://en.opensuse.org/User:Colyli>???
> > >             ?Novell <http://www.novell.com/linux/>?
> > >     * ????Ext4??????Linux
> > >     * ???OpenSuse???
> > >     * ???2008?5?10??????14?00?17?00?
> > >     * ?????? ??? ?????? 15? ?????????
> > >       <http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/MapSinaBus>?*?????20??
> > >       ???????15??????*
> > >     * ?????????????????????????????????
> > >       ??????????
> > >     * ????????138 1141 0476
> > >     * ???Coly Li <http://www.mlxos.org/>?OpenSuSe.org
> > >       <http://www.opensuse.org>?????
> > >
> > >
> > > ???http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-salon.cn.html
> > >
> > >
> > > ???
> > > ????????
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> > >
> > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > > http://www.zeuux.org
> > ??6??????????????????? :D
> >
> > --
> > ???
> > Xia Qingran
> > qingran at zeuux.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>
> My Blog: http://hamobai.com
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org




-- 
                            ?
??

???

"??????"????????????????????????????

GTALK:arthur5933 at gmail.com <GTALK%3Aarthur5933 at gmail.com>
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From bill at zeuux.org  Tue May  6 10:17:31 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 10:17:31 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?5YWz5LqO5ZOy5oCd6YKu5Lu25YiX6KGo?=
In-Reply-To: <481F0AF0.6090209@realss.com>
References: <481EF8E9.5020701@zeuux.org> <481F0AF0.6090209@realss.com>
Message-ID: <481FBFBB.5070705@zeuux.org>


> ????????????????????????????????????
> ???????
>   
???????????????????????????????????? 
zeuux-universe????????

??zeuux-universe??????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
?????????

????????????????????????

From bill at zeuux.org  Tue May  6 11:21:48 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 11:21:48 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W0NQeVVHOjQ5MjU3XSBbRlddICDlhbPkuo4=?=
 =?utf-8?b?6Kej6K+7R05VIEdQTCB2ZXJzaW9uIDPnmoTmlofnq6A=?=
In-Reply-To: <481F4836.2070902@delphij.net>
References: <48158923.2060002@zeuux.org>
	<9dad9f0a0804280137g7c89413am76b4a17d7f56eaac@mail.gmail.com>
	<481F4836.2070902@delphij.net>
Message-ID: <481FCECC.80904@zeuux.org>


>
> ??GPL???????????????????????????
???????????????????????2????

?GNU GPL?
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

??????????GNU GPL???????????

    <one line to give the program's name and a brief idea of what it does.>
    Copyright (C) <year>  <name of author>

    This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
    it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
    the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
    (at your option) any later version.

    This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
    but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
    MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
    GNU General Public License for more details.

    You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
    along with this program.  If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.

???????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
???????copyright law?????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????GNU GPL????? 
?????copyright law???????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
??????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
??????????????copyleft?


> ??????
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????SFLC??????????
> ?????????????
> ???????????????????????????????GPL???
> ????????????????????????????
?????g++??GNU GPL?????????????busybox???????
> ??? Stallman?
> ???????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????

???????????Richard???????????????????

Join the boycott of Chinese products <http://www.BoycottMadeInChina.org> 
to support human rights for Tibetans and Chinese.

????????????????????5?????????????

????????????????Richard???????????????? 
?????????????????????????????????? 
?Tibetans and Chinese?????????????????????????? 
??????????????????????

???????????????RMS??????????????????? 
??????????????

> ?
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????????????????????????
???????Richard????????????????????
>
> ???????????????????????????????????
> ????????????????????????
BSD????????shut up, and code?

??BSD??????????????????????GNU????????? 
?????????????

???

>
> | 2008/4/28 Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>:
> |> ????
> |>
> |>  ??2007?6?29???????????GNU GPL version3?????? 
> ???
> |>  ?????????????????????????IT?????? 
> V3???
> |>  ????????????????? GNU GPL v3????
> |>
> |>  ??????????CSDN?????????????GNU GPL v3????
> ???
> |>  http://www.zeuux.org/news/fsm-review-2007.cn.html
> |>
> |>  ????????????????????????????????? 
> ???
> |>  ????????????????????????????????? 
> ???
> |>  ?????????????????????????
>
> Cheers,
> - --
> Xin LI <delphij at delphij.net>    http://www.delphij.net/
> FreeBSD - The Power to Serve!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkgfSDUACgkQi+vbBBjt66C/zgCfexqiM3qVMEXEBQMfKWZxkZ4c
> z6MAoJ3D5NT8bisxnutsHMrf2e+n51Bj
> =vrun
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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From bill at zeuux.org  Tue May  6 11:55:40 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 11:55:40 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3pldXV4LXByZXNzXSDor7flpKflrrbluK4=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Yqp5a6h6ZiF44CK5ZOy5oCd6Ieq55Sx6L2v5Lu25omL5YaM44CL?=
In-Reply-To: <200805061107249298992@hzbook.com>
References: <481F03F2.1040208@zeuux.org> <200805061107249298992@hzbook.com>
Message-ID: <481FD6BC.3040300@zeuux.org>



sheguang ??:
> Dear all,
>  
> ???????????????????????1500~2000??
???

>  
> ??????????????
>  
> ???????????????mm)
> 16? 185*260  206*283  210*297  210*285  185*230 (16??????????
>  
> 32? 130*185  140*206  148*210 140*210  115*185 
>  
> 64? 90*130  102*138  105*144  105*140
????????

>  
> ??????????????????
?????

>  
> ???
>  
> 2008-05-06
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> sheguang
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *????* Bill Xu
> *?????* 2008-05-05  23:27:04
> *????* Zeuux; zeuux-press
> *???*
> *???* [zeuux-press] ?????????????????
> ????
>  
> ????????????????????
> http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-press.cn.html
>  
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????????4????????? 
> ?????????????????????????
>  
> ??????????
> http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-handbook.cn.html
>  
> ??????????????????????????????????? 
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????
>  
> ????????????????????????????????????? 
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ????????????????????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????????????????
>  
> ??????????????????????????????????? 
> zeuux-press at zeuux.org????????????????????????? 
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ???????????????
>  
>  
> happy hacking!
>  
> ???
> ????????
>  
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-press mailing list
> zeuux-press at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-press
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From arthur5933 at gmail.com  Tue May  6 11:56:37 2008
From: arthur5933 at gmail.com (arthur wang)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 11:56:37 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W0NQeVVHOjQ5MjU3XSBbRlddIOWFs+S6jg==?=
	=?utf-8?b?6Kej6K+7R05VIEdQTCB2ZXJzaW9uIDPnmoTmlofnq6A=?=
In-Reply-To: <481FCECC.80904@zeuux.org>
References: <48158923.2060002@zeuux.org>
	<9dad9f0a0804280137g7c89413am76b4a17d7f56eaac@mail.gmail.com>
	<481F4836.2070902@delphij.net> <481FCECC.80904@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <15ef8d370805052056y71357273pfdd136aaa3f61f07@mail.gmail.com>

 ?????????????????

?08-5-6?Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org> ???
>
>
>
> ??GPL???????????????"??"????????
>
> ???????????????????????2????
>
> ?GNU GPL?
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
>
> ??????????GNU GPL???????????
>
>     <one line to give the program's name and a brief idea of what it does.>
>     Copyright (C) <year>  <name of author>
>
>     This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
>     it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
>     the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
>     (at your option) any later version.
>
>     This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
>     but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
>     MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
>     GNU General Public License for more details.
>
>     You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
>     along with this program.  If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/> <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
>
> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????copyright
> law?????????????????????????????????????????????????GNU
> GPL??????????copyright
> law?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????copyleft?
>
>
> ??????
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ??"??"??????SFLC??????????
>
> ?????????????
> ???????????????????????????????GPL???
> ????????????????????????????
>
> ?????g++??GNU GPL?????????????busybox???????
>
> ??? Stallman?
> ???????????????????????????????????
>
> ??????????????????????????
>
> ???????????????????????????????
>
> ???????????Richard???????????????????
>
> Join the boycott of Chinese products <http://www.boycottmadeinchina.org/>to support human rights for Tibetans and Chinese.
>
> ????????????????????5?????????????
>
> ????????????????Richard??????????????????????????????????????????????????"Tibetans
> and Chinese"???????????????????????????????????????????????
>
> ???????????????RMS?????????????????????????????????
>
> ?
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????????????????????????
>
> ???????Richard????????????????????
>
>
> ???????????????????????????????????
> "??"????????????????????
>
> BSD????????shut up, and code?
>
> ??BSD??????????????????????GNU??????????????????????
>
> ???
>
>
> | 2008/4/28 Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org> <bill at zeuux.org>:
> |> ????
> |>
> |>  ??2007?6?29???????????GNU GPL version3?????????
> |>  ?????????????????????????IT??????V3???
> |>  ????????????????? GNU GPL v3????
> |>
> |>  ??????????CSDN?????????????GNU GPL v3????
> ???
> |>  http://www.zeuux.org/news/fsm-review-2007.cn.html
> |>
> |>  ????????????????????????????????????
> |>  ????????????????????????????????????
> |>  ?????????????????????????
>
> Cheers,
> - --
> Xin LI <delphij at delphij.net> <delphij at delphij.net>
> http://www.delphij.net/
> FreeBSD - The Power to Serve!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkgfSDUACgkQi+vbBBjt66C/zgCfexqiM3qVMEXEBQMfKWZxkZ4c
> z6MAoJ3D5NT8bisxnutsHMrf2e+n51Bj
> =vrun
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>



-- 
                            ?
??

???

"??????"????????????????????????????

GTALK:arthur5933 at gmail.com <GTALK%3Aarthur5933 at gmail.com>
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From cheungtifan at gmail.com  Tue May  6 14:38:11 2008
From: cheungtifan at gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:38:11 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W0NQeVVHOjQ5MjU3XSBbRlddIOWFs+S6jg==?=
	=?utf-8?b?6Kej6K+7R05VIEdQTCB2ZXJzaW9uIDPnmoTmlofnq6A=?=
In-Reply-To: <15ef8d370805052056y71357273pfdd136aaa3f61f07@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48158923.2060002@zeuux.org>
	<9dad9f0a0804280137g7c89413am76b4a17d7f56eaac@mail.gmail.com>
	<481F4836.2070902@delphij.net> <481FCECC.80904@zeuux.org>
	<15ef8d370805052056y71357273pfdd136aaa3f61f07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805052338s630410g8266246ae81cafc7@mail.gmail.com>

??Bill!
?????????gpl??????
??????vagaa,?????????????????????????????????

On 5/6/08, arthur wang <arthur5933 at gmail.com> wrote:
>  ?????????????????
>
> ?08-5-6?Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org> ???
> >
> >
> >
> > ??GPL???????????????"??"????????
> >
> > ???????????????????????2????
> >
> > ?GNU GPL?
> > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
> >
> > ??????????GNU GPL???????????
> >
> >     <one line to give the program's name and a brief idea of what it
> does.>
> >     Copyright (C) <year>  <name of author>
> >
> >     This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
> >     it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
> >     the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
> >     (at your option) any later version.
> >
> >     This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
> >     but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
> >     MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
> >     GNU General Public License for more details.
> >
> >     You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
> >     along with this program.  If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>
> <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
> >
> >
> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????copyright
> > law?????????????????????????????????????????????????GNU
> > GPL??????????copyright
> >
> law?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????copyleft?
> >
> >
> > ??????
> > ????????????????????????????????????
> > ??"??"??????SFLC??????????
> >
> > ?????????????
> > ???????????????????????????????GPL???
> > ????????????????????????????
> >
> > ?????g++??GNU GPL?????????????busybox???????
> >
> > ??? Stallman?
> > ???????????????????????????????????
> >
> > ??????????????????????????
> >
> > ???????????????????????????????
> >
> > ???????????Richard???????????????????
> >
> > Join the boycott of Chinese products
> <http://www.boycottmadeinchina.org/>to support human rights for Tibetans and
> Chinese.
> >
> > ????????????????????5?????????????
> >
> >
> ????????????????Richard??????????????????????????????????????????????????"Tibetans
> > and Chinese"???????????????????????????????????????????????
> >
> > ???????????????RMS?????????????????????????????????
> >
> > ?
> > ????????????????????????????????????
> > ????????????????????????????????
> >
> > ???????Richard????????????????????
> >
> >
> > ???????????????????????????????????
> > "??"????????????????????
> >
> > BSD????????shut up, and code?
> >
> > ??BSD??????????????????????GNU??????????????????????
> >
> > ???
> >
> >
> > | 2008/4/28 Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org> <bill at zeuux.org>:
> > |> ????
> > |>
> > |>  ??2007?6?29???????????GNU GPL version3?????????
> > |>  ?????????????????????????IT??????V3???
> > |>  ????????????????? GNU GPL v3????
> > |>
> > |>  ??????????CSDN?????????????GNU GPL v3????
> > ???
> > |>  http://www.zeuux.org/news/fsm-review-2007.cn.html
> > |>
> > |>  ????????????????????????????????????
> > |>  ????????????????????????????????????
> > |>  ?????????????????????????
> >
> > Cheers,
> > - --
> > Xin LI <delphij at delphij.net> <delphij at delphij.net>
> > http://www.delphij.net/
> > FreeBSD - The Power to Serve!
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD)
> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> >
> > iEYEARECAAYFAkgfSDUACgkQi+vbBBjt66C/zgCfexqiM3qVMEXEBQMfKWZxkZ4c
> > z6MAoJ3D5NT8bisxnutsHMrf2e+n51Bj
> > =vrun
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
>                             ?
> ??
>
> ???
>
> "??????"????????????????????????????
>
> GTALK:arthur5933 at gmail.com <GTALK%3Aarthur5933 at gmail.com>
>


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From cheungtifan at gmail.com  Tue May  6 14:51:36 2008
From: cheungtifan at gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:51:36 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
	=?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCA=?=
	=?utf-8?b?5paH5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <15ef8d370805051829r45e0865dxfab142d57cdd2a60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
	<55b9903b0805051805o62144e9fh3fabb36ea3700350@mail.gmail.com>
	<15ef8d370805051829r45e0865dxfab142d57cdd2a60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805052351h5371ecc9uceaebe2d09cca0f6@mail.gmail.com>

???ext4???????????????????????????????????????????
zeuux???????????

On 5/6/08, arthur wang <arthur5933 at gmail.com> wrote:
> hamo.by
> ???
>
> ???????????????????????"?????????????"????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> ???
>
>
> ?08-5-6?Hamo <hamo.by at gmail.com> ???
> >
> > ???????????????????ext4??????????????????????????
> >
> > On 5/5/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote:
> > > Bill Xu wrote:
> > > > ????
> > > >
> > > > ????4??????????????????????
> > > >
> > > > Coly????????????????ext4????????????????
> > > > ????????????????????????????????????
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       ??????4??2008?5?10?????
> > > >
> > > >     * ???Ext4 ??????
> > > >
> > > <http://www.zeuux.org/pub/zeuux-monthly-3-200803-ext4-introduction.pdf>
> > > >     * ???
> > > >           o Coly Li <http://www.mlxos.org/>?Linux ??????????
> > > >             ?Ext4?ocfs2???????????OpenIPMI?YaST?????
> > > >             ??SuSE Labs?? <http://en.opensuse.org/User:Colyli>???
> > > >             ?Novell <http://www.novell.com/linux/>?
> > > >     * ????Ext4??????Linux
> > > >     * ???OpenSuse???
> > > >     * ???2008?5?10??????14?00?17?00?
> > > >     * ?????? ??? ?????? 15? ?????????
> > > >       <http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/MapSinaBus>?*?????20??
> > > >       ???????15??????*
> > > >     * ?????????????????????????????????
> > > >       ??????????
> > > >     * ????????138 1141 0476
> > > >     * ???Coly Li <http://www.mlxos.org/>?OpenSuSe.org
> > > >       <http://www.opensuse.org>?????
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ???http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-salon.cn.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ???
> > > > ????????
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > > > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > > > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> > > >
> > > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > > > http://www.zeuux.org
> > > ??6??????????????????? :D
> > >
> > > --
> > > ???
> > > Xia Qingran
> > > qingran at zeuux.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> > >
> > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > > http://www.zeuux.org
> >
> > --
> > Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
> >
> > My Blog: http://hamobai.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
>
> --
>                             ?
> ??
>
> ???
>
> "??????"????????????????????????????
>
> GTALK:arthur5933 at gmail.com <GTALK%3Aarthur5933 at gmail.com>
>


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From bill at zeuux.org  Tue May  6 15:18:26 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 15:18:26 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <5fdc2ee10805052351h5371ecc9uceaebe2d09cca0f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org>
	<481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>	<55b9903b0805051805o62144e9fh3fabb36ea3700350@mail.gmail.com>	<15ef8d370805051829r45e0865dxfab142d57cdd2a60@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805052351h5371ecc9uceaebe2d09cca0f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48200642.8040106@zeuux.org>



Alex Zhang ??:
> ???ext4???????????????????????????????????????????
>   
> zeuux???????????
>   
???????????????????????????????????? 
????

> On 5/6/08, arthur wang <arthur5933 at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> hamo.by
>> ???
>>
>> ???????????????????????"?????????????"????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>> ???
>>
>>
>> ?08-5-6?Hamo <hamo.by at gmail.com> ???
>>     
>>> ???????????????????ext4??????????????????????????
>>>
>>> On 5/5/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Bill Xu wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>> ????
>>>>>
>>>>> ????4??????????????????????
>>>>>
>>>>> Coly????????????????ext4????????????????
>>>>> ????????????????????????????????????
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>       ??????4??2008?5?10?????
>>>>>
>>>>>     * ???Ext4 ??????
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> <http://www.zeuux.org/pub/zeuux-monthly-3-200803-ext4-introduction.pdf>
>>>>         
>>>>>     * ???
>>>>>           o Coly Li <http://www.mlxos.org/>?Linux ??????????
>>>>>             ?Ext4?ocfs2???????????OpenIPMI?YaST?????
>>>>>             ??SuSE Labs?? <http://en.opensuse.org/User:Colyli>???
>>>>>             ?Novell <http://www.novell.com/linux/>?
>>>>>     * ????Ext4??????Linux
>>>>>     * ???OpenSuse???
>>>>>     * ???2008?5?10??????14?00?17?00?
>>>>>     * ?????? ??? ?????? 15? ?????????
>>>>>       <http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/MapSinaBus>?*?????20??
>>>>>       ???????15??????*
>>>>>     * ?????????????????????????????????
>>>>>       ??????????
>>>>>     * ????????138 1141 0476
>>>>>     * ???Coly Li <http://www.mlxos.org/>?OpenSuSe.org
>>>>>       <http://www.opensuse.org>?????
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ???http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-salon.cn.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ???
>>>>> ????????
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>>>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>>>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>>>
>>>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>>>>           
>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ???
>>>> Xia Qingran
>>>> qingran at zeuux.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>>
>>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>>>         
>>> --
>>> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>>>
>>> My Blog: http://hamobai.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>
>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>>       
>>
>>
>> --
>>                             ?
>> ??
>>
>> ???
>>
>> "??????"????????????????????????????
>>
>> GTALK:arthur5933 at gmail.com <GTALK%3Aarthur5933 at gmail.com>
>>
>>     
>
>
>   
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From bill at zeuux.org  Tue May  6 16:11:12 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:11:12 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W0NQeVVHOjQ5MjU3XSBbRlddIOWFs+S6jg==?=
 =?utf-8?b?6Kej6K+7R05VIEdQTCB2ZXJzaW9uIDPnmoTmlofnq6A=?=
In-Reply-To: <5fdc2ee10805052338s630410g8266246ae81cafc7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48158923.2060002@zeuux.org>	
	<9dad9f0a0804280137g7c89413am76b4a17d7f56eaac@mail.gmail.com>	
	<481F4836.2070902@delphij.net> <481FCECC.80904@zeuux.org>	
	<15ef8d370805052056y71357273pfdd136aaa3f61f07@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805052338s630410g8266246ae81cafc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482012A0.7030504@zeuux.org>


>>> ??GPL???????????????"??"????????
>>>       
????????????Linux?????FSF?Linux??????????? 
?GNU GPL version 3???????????????GNU???????V3?? 
????????????

??Linux??????????????????????????????? 
????????????

>   

From zhangweiwu at realss.com  Wed May  7 14:20:07 2008
From: zhangweiwu at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 14:20:07 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5aW95YOP5pyJ5LiN5bCR55qE6Z2e6Ieq55Sx?=
 =?utf-8?b?6L2v5Lu25a+5bGludXjlhY3otLnvvIzlr7l3aW5kb3dz5pS26LS55p2l552A?=
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOm77yf?=
In-Reply-To: <4820EA19.0001B4.22531@bj163app5.163.com>
References: <4820EA19.0001B4.22531@bj163app5.163.com>
Message-ID: <48214A17.3040404@realss.com>

?????????????

??ISV????????????????Linux??????????

   1. ?????????????????????????????????
      ??????????????????????
   2. ?????????????????????????????????
      ?Windows???????????????
   3. ?????????????????????????????????
      ??????????????????????????Linux????
      ????????????????????bug???????????
      ????????????????????????????????
      ???????Windows???????????
   4. ?????????????????????????????????
      ????????????Linux?????????????????
      Linux??????????????????????????????
      ???


?RAR????????Linux?????

????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
?????????Linux?????????????????????????
?????????

fros wrote:
> ??????mysql?realbasic??????????linux????????windows??????
>
> ????????
>
> :)
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
Real Softservice

Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 135 9950 2413
http://www.realss.com


From bill at zeuux.org  Wed May  7 18:20:33 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 18:20:33 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSp77yM5Y6f5p2l5pyJ6L+Z5LmI5aSa?=
 =?utf-8?b?6YKu5Lu25oiR5rKh5pyJ5pS25Yiw5ZWK4oCm4oCm?=
In-Reply-To: <48217E65.8090505@gmail.com>
References: <97be3a2f0805070249y15291732mb8de9942edd0e037@mail.gmail.com>
	<48217E65.8090505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48218271.3080702@zeuux.org>

?gmail.com??????(zeuux.org??????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????

?gmail.com?????????????????

Lyman ??:
> Julien GONG Min (Gmail) ??:
>   
>> ?????????20??????????
>>
>> ????Google?????Zeuux?????????????????????????????? -?-
>>
>>     
> ???????????????????????????????????? 
> ?? gmail ?????
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
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From cheungtifan at gmail.com  Thu May  8 07:54:31 2008
From: cheungtifan at gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 07:54:31 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5Zue5aSN77yaIOWlveWDj+acieS4jeWwkQ==?=
	=?utf-8?b?55qE6Z2e6Ieq55Sx6L2v5Lu25a+5bGludXjlhY3otLnvvIzlr7l3aW5k?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3dz5pS26LS55p2l552A5ZOm77yf?=
In-Reply-To: <67414.80615.qm@web92208.mail.cnh.yahoo.com>
References: <67414.80615.qm@web92208.mail.cnh.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805071654t2d7462b1j13978007b3a2cc51@mail.gmail.com>

???????????????????
Alex

On 5/7/08, InfoHunter <infohunter at yahoo.cn> wrote:
> "?????"?????????
>
>  Regards,
>
> InfoHunter < http://www.InfoHunter.cn >
>
>
>
>
> ----- ???? ----
> ???? fros <fros at 163.com>
> ???? zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> ???? 2008/5/7(??), ??7:30:33
> ??? [zeuux-universe] ????????????linux????windows??????
>
> ??????mysql?realbasic??????????linux????????windows??????
>
> ????????
>
> :)
>
>
> ________________________________
>  ????????????????????
>
>
>       ___________________________________________________________
>  ????????????
> http://cn.mail.yahoo.com/


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From zhangweiwu at realss.com  Wed May  7 23:35:40 2008
From: zhangweiwu at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 23:35:40 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3pldXV4LXByZXNzXSDor7flpKflrrbluK4=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Yqp5a6h6ZiF44CK5ZOy5oCd6Ieq55Sx6L2v5Lu25omL5YaM44CL?=
In-Reply-To: <481FD6BC.3040300@zeuux.org>
References: <481F03F2.1040208@zeuux.org> <200805061107249298992@hzbook.com>
	<481FD6BC.3040300@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <4821CC4C.4050001@realss.com>

????????????????????????????????????
????????????????Linux?????????????????
?????????????

????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????learning curve???
????????????OpenOffice?Tex?????????filezilla?lftp
??????????jedit ?vim????????????lftp??????
?????filezilla??????????????????????????
????????????????????

????????????????????scribus??layout??????
????????????????????????????????????
???????????????tex???????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????layout????????????????
???????VDP(Variable Data Publication)??????????????
??????????????????bug?????????????scribus
???????????????????????????Adobe InDesign??
???????????????????????????IT????????

????????????????????????????Pentaho Report?
????????????????????????????????????
??^_^???????

Bill Xu wrote:
>
>
> sheguang ??:
>> Dear all,
>>  
>> ???????????????????????1500~2000??
> ???
>
>>  
>> ??????????????
>>  
>> ???????????????mm)
>> 16? 185*260  206*283  210*297  210*285  185*230 (16??????????
>>  
>> 32? 130*185  140*206  148*210 140*210  115*185  
>> 64? 90*130  102*138  105*144  105*140
> ????????
>
>>  
>> ??????????????????
> ?????
>
>>  
>> ???
>>  
>> 2008-05-06
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> sheguang
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *????* Bill Xu
>> *?????* 2008-05-05  23:27:04
>> *????* Zeuux; zeuux-press
>> *???*
>> *???* [zeuux-press] ?????????????????
>> ????
>>  
>> ????????????????????
>> http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-press.cn.html
>>  
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ????????????????????????????4??????
>> ??? ?????????????????????????
>>  
>> ??????????
>> http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-handbook.cn.html
>>  
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ??????? ??????????????????????
>>  
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ?????????????????????????????????
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ???????????????????????????????????
>> ????????
>>  
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ? zeuux-press at zeuux.org???????????????????????
>> ??????????????????????????????????
>> ???? ???????????????
>>  
>>  
>> happy hacking!
>>  
>> ???
>> ???????? 


-- 
Real Softservice

Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 135 9950 2413
http://www.realss.com



From zhangweiwu at realss.com  Wed May  7 23:39:32 2008
From: zhangweiwu at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 23:39:32 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>

Xia Qingran wrote:
> ??6??????????????????? :D
>   
????????????????????????????????????
?^_^

??9???????????????


From qingran at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 11:38:04 2008
From: qingran at zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:38:04 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?gb2312?b?1dzLvMmzwfqjrbXaNMbao60yMDA4xOo11MIx?=
 =?gb2312?b?MMjVo63QwsDLzfgg1vfM4qO6RXh0NCDOxLz+z7XNs73pydw=?=
In-Reply-To: <55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>	
	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4822759C.6060005@zeuux.org>

Hamo wrote:
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
>   
????????????http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-
salon.cn.html????
http://www.zeuux.org/pub/zeuux-monthly-3-200803-ext4-introduction.pdf
> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
>   
>> Xia Qingran wrote:
>>     
>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>
>>>       
>> ????????????????????????????????????
>> ?^_^
>>
>> ??9???????????????
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>     
>
>   


-- 
???
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From qingran at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 11:38:53 2008
From: qingran at zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:38:53 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
Message-ID: <482275CD.3010300@zeuux.org>

Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> Xia Qingran wrote:
>   
>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>   
>>     
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ?^_^
>   
?????????????????? :-)
> ??9???????????????
>
>
>   


-- 
???
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From bill at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 14:13:13 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:13:13 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3pldXV4LXByZXNzXSDor7flpKflrrbluK4=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Yqp5a6h6ZiF44CK5ZOy5oCd6Ieq55Sx6L2v5Lu25omL5YaM44CL?=
In-Reply-To: <4821CC4C.4050001@realss.com>
References: <481F03F2.1040208@zeuux.org> <200805061107249298992@hzbook.com>
	<481FD6BC.3040300@zeuux.org> <4821CC4C.4050001@realss.com>
Message-ID: <482299F9.6000803@zeuux.org>


> ????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????????Linux?????????????????
> ?????????????
>   
????????????????????????????????????? 
?????????????????

????????????????????????????????????? 
???????????????????????????????????? 
???????????

??????????????????????????????????????

Weiwu???????????????Weiwu???????????????? 
???????????????????


???

> ????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ??????????????????????????learning curve???
> ????????????OpenOffice?Tex?????????filezilla?lftp
> ??????????jedit ?vim????????????lftp??????
> ?????filezilla??????????????????????????
> ????????????????????
>
> ????????????????????scribus??layout??????
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ???????????????tex???????????????????
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ?????????????????layout????????????????
> ???????VDP(Variable Data Publication)??????????????
> ??????????????????bug?????????????scribus
> ???????????????????????????Adobe InDesign??
> ???????????????????????????IT????????
>
> ????????????????????????????Pentaho Report?
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ??^_^???????
>
> Bill Xu wrote:
>   
>> sheguang ??:
>>     
>>> Dear all,
>>>  
>>> ???????????????????????1500~2000??
>>>       
>> ???
>>
>>     
>>>  
>>> ??????????????
>>>  
>>> ???????????????mm)
>>> 16? 185*260  206*283  210*297  210*285  185*230 (16??????????
>>>  
>>> 32? 130*185  140*206  148*210 140*210  115*185  
>>> 64? 90*130  102*138  105*144  105*140
>>>       
>> ????????
>>
>>     
>>>  
>>> ??????????????????
>>>       
>> ?????
>>
>>     
>>>  
>>> ???
>>>  
>>> 2008-05-06
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> sheguang
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *????* Bill Xu
>>> *?????* 2008-05-05  23:27:04
>>> *????* Zeuux; zeuux-press
>>> *???*
>>> *???* [zeuux-press] ?????????????????
>>> ????
>>>  
>>> ????????????????????
>>> http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-press.cn.html
>>>  
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ????????????????????????????4??????
>>> ??? ?????????????????????????
>>>  
>>> ??????????
>>> http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-handbook.cn.html
>>>  
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ??????? ??????????????????????
>>>  
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ?????????????????????????????????
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ???????????????????????????????????
>>> ????????
>>>  
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ? zeuux-press at zeuux.org???????????????????????
>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>> ???? ???????????????
>>>  
>>>  
>>> happy hacking!
>>>  
>>> ???
>>> ???????? 
>>>       
>
>
>   
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From bill at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 14:16:50 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:16:50 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org>
	<481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org>



Hamo ??:
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
>   
????qingran?????????????????????


> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
>   
>> Xia Qingran wrote:
>>     
>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>
>>>       
>> ????????????????????????????????????
>> ?^_^
>>
>> ??9???????????????
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>     
>
>   
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From bill at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 14:21:35 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:21:35 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <b791204d0805072059i770c03c5ycdc045859d46b0d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org>
	<481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
	<482275CD.3010300@zeuux.org>
	<b791204d0805072059i770c03c5ycdc045859d46b0d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48229BEF.10605@zeuux.org>



chifeng ??:
> ???????????pdf?????????????????????????????:(
>   
?????????????????????
> 2008/5/8 Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org>:
>   
>> Zhang Weiwu wrote:
>>  > Xia Qingran wrote:
>>  >
>>  >> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  > ????????????????????????????????????
>>  > ?^_^
>>  >
>>  ?????????????"??"? :-)
>>  > ??9???????????????
>>
>>     
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  ???
>>  Xia Qingran
>>  qingran at zeuux.org
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>  zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>>  http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>>  ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>  http://www.zeuux.org
>>     
>
>
>
>   
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From colyli at gmail.com  Thu May  8 14:38:27 2008
From: colyli at gmail.com (Coly Li)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:38:27 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org>	<481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <48229FE3.3050504@gmail.com>



Bill Xu wrote:
> 
> 
> Hamo ??:
>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
>>   

??????????????????????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????


> ????qingran?????????????????????
> 
> 
>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
>>   
>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
>>>     
>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>>
>>>>       
>>> ????????????????????????????????????
>>> ?^_^
>>>
>>> ??9???????????????
>>>

-- 
Thanks

Coly

From Alex.Peng at Sun.COM  Thu May  8 14:27:18 2008
From: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM (Jian-xiang Alex Peng)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:27:18 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <48229FE3.3050504@gmail.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org> <48229FE3.3050504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48229D46.8040802@sun.com>

Coly Li ??:
> Bill Xu wrote:
>   
>> Hamo ??:
>>     
>>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
>>>   
>>>       
>
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> ???????????????????????
>   

???dtrace??call stack  :)
???demo??

-Alex



>
>   
>> ????qingran?????????????????????
>>
>>
>>     
>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> ????????????????????????????????????
>>>> ?^_^
>>>>
>>>> ??9???????????????
>>>>
>>>>         
>
>   


From colyli at gmail.com  Thu May  8 14:59:30 2008
From: colyli at gmail.com (Coly Li)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:59:30 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <48229D46.8040802@sun.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org> <48229FE3.3050504@gmail.com>
	<48229D46.8040802@sun.com>
Message-ID: <4822A4D2.9050805@gmail.com>



Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> Coly Li ??:
>> Bill Xu wrote:
>>  
>>> Hamo ??:
>>>    
>>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>>> ????????????????
>>>>         
>>
>> ???????????????????????????????????
>> ???????????????
>> ???????????????????????
>>   
> 
> ???dtrace??call stack  :)
> ???demo??
??demo?????????demo??????????????????????????????
????????????????7???????????????????????????????ext4
???????


> 
>>
>>  
>>> ????qingran?????????????????????
>>>
>>>
>>>    
>>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
>>>>>            
>>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 
>>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
>>>>> ???
>>>>> ?^_^
>>>>>
>>>>> ??9???????????????
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>
>>   
> 
> 

-- 
Thanks

Coly

From Alex.Peng at Sun.COM  Thu May  8 14:51:39 2008
From: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM (Jian-xiang Alex Peng)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:51:39 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <4822A4D2.9050805@gmail.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org> <48229FE3.3050504@gmail.com>
	<48229D46.8040802@sun.com> <4822A4D2.9050805@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4822A2FB.8070104@sun.com>

Coly Li ??:
> Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
>   
>> Coly Li ??:
>>     
>>> Bill Xu wrote:
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> Hamo ??:
>>>>    
>>>>         
>>>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>>>> ????????????????
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> ???????????????????????????????????
>>> ???????????????
>>> ???????????????????????
>>>   
>>>       
>> ???dtrace??call stack  :)
>> ???demo??
>>     
> ??demo?????????demo??????????????????????????????
> ????????????????7???????????????????????????????ext4
> ???????
>   

??????code????qingran/bill?????????




>
>   
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> ????qingran?????????????????????
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    
>>>>         
>>>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
>>>>>        
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
>>>>>> ???
>>>>>> ?^_^
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ??9???????????????
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>   
>>>       
>>     
>
>   


From colyli at gmail.com  Thu May  8 15:18:57 2008
From: colyli at gmail.com (Coly Li)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:18:57 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <4822A2FB.8070104@sun.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org> <481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>
	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>
	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org> <48229FE3.3050504@gmail.com>
	<48229D46.8040802@sun.com> <4822A4D2.9050805@gmail.com>
	<4822A2FB.8070104@sun.com>
Message-ID: <4822A961.2090606@gmail.com>



Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> Coly Li ??:
>> Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
>>  
>>> Coly Li ??:
>>>    
>>>> Bill Xu wrote:
>>>>  
>>>>      
>>>>> Hamo ??:
>>>>>           
>>>>>> ??????????????????????????????????
>>>>>> ????????????????
>>>>>>                   
>>>> ???????????????????????????????????
>>>> ???????????????
>>>> ???????????????????????
>>>>         
>>> ???dtrace??call stack  :)
>>> ???demo??
>>>     
>> ??demo?????????demo????????????????????
>> ??????????
>> ????????????????7??????????????????
>> ?????????????ext4
>> ???????
>>   
> 
> ??????code????qingran/bill?????????
Code????????????????????????????? ?????????????code???5
?????????????

>>>>      
>>>>> ????qingran?????????????????????
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
>>>>>>> ???
>>>>>>> ?^_^
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ??9???????????????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                     
>>>>         
>>>     
>>
>>   
> 
> 

-- 
Thanks

Coly

From bill at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 15:11:00 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:11:00 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <4822A2FB.8070104@sun.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org>
	<481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>	<48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org>
	<48229FE3.3050504@gmail.com>	<48229D46.8040802@sun.com>
	<4822A4D2.9050805@gmail.com> <4822A2FB.8070104@sun.com>
Message-ID: <4822A784.3030307@zeuux.org>


> ??????code????qingran/bill?????????
>   
????


From qingran at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 16:52:51 2008
From: qingran at zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:52:51 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNOacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ15pyIMTDml6XvvI3mlrDmtarnvZEg5Li76aKY77yaRXh0NCDmloc=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Lu257O757uf5LuL57uN?=
In-Reply-To: <48229D46.8040802@sun.com>
References: <481586E7.8000505@zeuux.org>
	<481F2ED9.7050109@zeuux.org>	<4821CD34.2040701@realss.com>	<55b9903b0805071913m558428fbp367dfd64332ba8ab@mail.gmail.com>	<48229AD2.2010602@zeuux.org>
	<48229FE3.3050504@gmail.com> <48229D46.8040802@sun.com>
Message-ID: <4822BF63.5040000@zeuux.org>

Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> Coly Li ??:
>   
>> Bill Xu wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Hamo ??:
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
>> ???????????????????????
>>   
>>     
>
> ???dtrace??call stack  :)
> ???demo??
>   
??????????????????????
??????????????? ???????????????????? 
??????????...
> -Alex
>
>
>
>   
>>   
>>     
>>> ????qingran?????????????????????
>>>
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> ????????????????????????????????????
>>>>> ?^_^
>>>>>
>>>>> ??9???????????????
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>   
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
???
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From bill at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 17:51:42 2008
From: bill at zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 17:51:42 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?6L+Z5Liq6Zeu6aKY5oiR5Lus5Y+v6IO96ZyA?=
	=?utf-8?b?6KaB6YG/5YWN?=
In-Reply-To: <4822C9F4.6080606@zeuux.org>
References: <4822C9F4.6080606@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <4822CD2E.4050204@zeuux.org>

?????????

????????????zeuux-www at zeuux.org??CC?zeuux- 
universe at zeuux.org??????????????????????????

??????builder????????????????????????? 
builder?????????????????????? XHTML?CSS????? 
??????????

Xia Qingran ??:
> ?95%?????????CSS?
> http://jorux.com/archives/95-websites-of-china-need-to-rewrite-css/
>

From qingran at zeuux.org  Thu May  8 18:38:17 2008
From: qingran at zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 18:38:17 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] zeuux-universe Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <200805081825086098553@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.971.1210241513.796.zeuux-universe@zeuux.org>
	<200805081825086098553@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4822D819.4050201@zeuux.org>

??????????????Mailman???bug?

?????????Mailman???????????????????????

?????????

Daniel wrote:
> ????
> 2008-05-08
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *????* zeuux-universe-request at zeuux.org
> *?????* 2008-05-08 18:21:41
> *????* zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> *???*
> *???* zeuux-universe Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
> Send zeuux-universe mailing list submissions to
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> zeuux-universe-request at zeuux.org
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> zeuux-universe-owner at zeuux.org
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of zeuux-universe digest..."
> Today's Topics:
> 1. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Coly Li)
> 2. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Jian-xiang Alex Peng)
> 3. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Coly Li)
> 4. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Jian-xiang Alex Peng)
> 5. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Coly Li)
> 6. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Bill Xu)
> 7. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Xia Qingran)
> 8. Re: ???????????? (Bill Xu)
> 9. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Jianjun Kong)
> 10. Re: ???????????? ( ?? )
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:38:27 +0800
> From: Coly Li <colyli at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> To: Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>
> Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> Message-ID: <48229FE3.3050504 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Bill Xu wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hamo ??:
> >> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> >>
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> ???????????????????????
> > ????qingran?????????????????????
> >
> >
> >> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> ????????????????????????????????????
> >>> ?^_^
> >>>
> >>> ??9???????????????
> >>>
> -- 
> Thanks
> Coly
> ------------------------------
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:27:18 +0800
> From: Jian-xiang Alex Peng <Alex.Peng at Sun.COM>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> To: colyli at gmail.com
> Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> Message-ID: <48229D46.8040802 at sun.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8
> Coly Li ??:
> > Bill Xu wrote:
> >
> >> Hamo ??:
> >>
> >>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> > ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ???????????????????????
> >
> ???dtrace??call stack :)
> ???demo??
> -Alex
> >
> >
> >> ????qingran?????????????????????
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> ????????????????????????????????????
> >>>> ?^_^
> >>>>
> >>>> ??9???????????????
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >
> >
> ------------------------------
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:59:30 +0800
> From: Coly Li <colyli at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> To: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM
> Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> Message-ID: <4822A4D2.9050805 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> > Coly Li ??:
> >> Bill Xu wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hamo ??:
> >>>
> >>>> ??????????????????????????????????
> >>>> ????????????????
> >>>>
> >>
> >> ???????????????????????????????????
> >> ???????????????
> >> ???????????????????????
> >>
> >
> > ???dtrace??call stack :)
> > ???demo??
> ??demo?????????demo??????????????????????????????
> ????????????????7???????????????????????????????ext4
> ???????
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> ????qingran?????????????????????
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
> >>>>> ???
> >>>>> ?^_^
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ??9???????????????
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> -- 
> Thanks
> Coly
> ------------------------------
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:51:39 +0800
> From: Jian-xiang Alex Peng <Alex.Peng at Sun.COM>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> To: colyli at gmail.com
> Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> Message-ID: <4822A2FB.8070104 at sun.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8
> Coly Li ??:
> > Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> >
> >> Coly Li ??:
> >>
> >>> Bill Xu wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hamo ??:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> ??????????????????????????????????
> >>>>> ????????????????
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>> ???????????????????????????????????
> >>> ???????????????
> >>> ???????????????????????
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ???dtrace??call stack :)
> >> ???demo??
> >>
> > ??demo?????????demo??????????????????????????????
> > ????????????????7???????????????????????????????ext4
> > ???????
> >
> ??????code????qingran/bill?????????
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> ????qingran?????????????????????
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
> >>>>>> ???
> >>>>>> ?^_^
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ??9???????????????
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> ------------------------------
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:18:57 +0800
> From: Coly Li <colyli at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> To: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM
> Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> Message-ID: <4822A961.2090606 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> > Coly Li ??:
> >> Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> >>
> >>> Coly Li ??:
> >>>
> >>>> Bill Xu wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hamo ??:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> ??????????????????????????????????
> >>>>>> ????????????????
> >>>>>>
> >>>> ???????????????????????????????????
> >>>> ???????????????
> >>>> ???????????????????????
> >>>>
> >>> ???dtrace??call stack :)
> >>> ???demo??
> >>>
> >> ??demo?????????demo????????????????????
> >> ??????????
> >> ????????????????7??????????????????
> >> ?????????????ext4
> >> ???????
> >>
> >
> > ??????code????qingran/bill?????????
> Code????????????????????????????? ?????????????code???5
> ?????????????
> >>>>
> >>>>> ????qingran?????????????????????
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
> >>>>>>> ???
> >>>>>>> ?^_^
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ??9???????????????
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> -- 
> Thanks
> Coly
> ------------------------------
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:11:00 +0800
> From: Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> To: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM
> Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> Message-ID: <4822A784.3030307 at zeuux.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> > ??????code????qingran/bill?????????
> >
> ????
> ------------------------------
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:52:51 +0800
> From: Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> To: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM
> Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> Message-ID: <4822BF63.5040000 at zeuux.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> > Coly Li ??:
> >
> >> Bill Xu wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hamo ??:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> >> ???????????????????????
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ???dtrace??call stack :)
> > ???demo??
> >
> ??????????????????????
> ??????????????? ????????????????????
> ??????????...
> > -Alex
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> ????qingran?????????????????????
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> ????????????????????????????????????
> >>>>> ?^_^
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ??9???????????????
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
> -- 
> ???
> Xia Qingran
> qingran at zeuux.org
> ------------------------------
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 17:51:42 +0800
> From: Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ????????????
> To: Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org>
> Cc: xiawu <xiawu at zeuux.org>, zeuux-www at zeuux.org, Zeuux
> <zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>
> Message-ID: <4822CD2E.4050204 at zeuux.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> ?????????
> ????????????zeuux-www at zeuux.org??CC?zeuux-
> universe at zeuux.org??????????????????????????
> ??????builder?????????????????????????
> builder?????????????????????? XHTML?CSS?????
> ??????????
> Xia Qingran ??:
> > ?95%?????????CSS?
> > http://jorux.com/archives/95-websites-of-china-need-to-rewrite-css/
> >
> ------------------------------
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:56:37 +0800
> From: Jianjun Kong <kongjianjun at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> To: Hamo <hamo.by at gmail.com>
> Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> Message-ID: <20080508095637.GB6875 at ubuntu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 09:05:12AM +0800, Hamo wrote:
> > ???????????????????ext4??????????????????????????
> ??????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????????????????
> ????????????????????????linux???????????????????
> -- 
> | If you seems to know whatever, you will do nothing very well.
> | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> | Jianjun Kong | www.kongove.cn
> | Xi'an Institute of Post & Telecommunications
> ------------------------------
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 18:21:13 +0800
> From: " ?? " <xia.wu.cn at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ????????????
> To: "Bill Xu" <bill at zeuux.org>
> Cc: zeuux-www at zeuux.org, Zeuux <zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>
> Message-ID:
> <a85bb34e0805080321p54cead97ie443ced194203830 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"
> 2008/5/8 Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>:
> > ?????????
> >
> > ????????????zeuux-www at zeuux.org??CC?zeuux-
> > universe at zeuux.org??????????????????????????
> >
> > ?????"builder"????????????????????????
> > builder?????????????????????? XHTML?CSS?????
> > ??????????
> ???????????learing css???????????????????
> >
> > Xia Qingran ??:
> > > "95%?????????CSS"
> > > http://jorux.com/archives/95-websites-of-china-need-to-rewrite-css/
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://www.zeuux.org/pipermail/zeuux-universe/attachments/20080508/21132bdd/attachment.html
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
> End of zeuux-universe Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
> *********************************************
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
???
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From cheungtifan at gmail.com  Thu May  8 21:03:24 2008
From: cheungtifan at gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:03:24 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] zeuux-universe Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <4822D819.4050201@zeuux.org>
References: <mailman.971.1210241513.796.zeuux-universe@zeuux.org>
	<200805081825086098553@gmail.com> <4822D819.4050201@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805080603l3547f133p1915adc3e6d23bbb@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, Daniel
I've gotta this problem days ago.
Please unsubscribe it and re-subscribe it by changing the language to Chinese.
Hope I can help.
Alex

On 5/8/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote:
> ??????????????Mailman???bug?
>
> ?????????Mailman???????????????????????
>
> ?????????
>
> Daniel wrote:
> > ????
> > 2008-05-08
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Daniel
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *????* zeuux-universe-request at zeuux.org
> > *?????* 2008-05-08 18:21:41
> > *????* zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > *???*
> > *???* zeuux-universe Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
> > Send zeuux-universe mailing list submissions to
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > zeuux-universe-request at zeuux.org
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > zeuux-universe-owner at zeuux.org
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of zeuux-universe digest..."
> > Today's Topics:
> > 1. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Coly Li)
> > 2. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Jian-xiang Alex Peng)
> > 3. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Coly Li)
> > 4. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Jian-xiang Alex Peng)
> > 5. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Coly Li)
> > 6. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Bill Xu)
> > 7. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Xia Qingran)
> > 8. Re: ???????????? (Bill Xu)
> > 9. Re: ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ?????? (Jianjun Kong)
> > 10. Re: ???????????? ( ?? )
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:38:27 +0800
> > From: Coly Li <colyli at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> > To: Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>
> > Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > Message-ID: <48229FE3.3050504 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > Bill Xu wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hamo ??:
> > >> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > >>
> > ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ???????????????????????
> > > ????qingran?????????????????????
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> ????????????????????????????????????
> > >>> ?^_^
> > >>>
> > >>> ??9???????????????
> > >>>
> > --
> > Thanks
> > Coly
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:27:18 +0800
> > From: Jian-xiang Alex Peng <Alex.Peng at Sun.COM>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> > To: colyli at gmail.com
> > Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > Message-ID: <48229D46.8040802 at sun.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8
> > Coly Li ??:
> > > Bill Xu wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hamo ??:
> > >>
> > >>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > > ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > > ???????????????????????
> > >
> > ???dtrace??call stack :)
> > ???demo??
> > -Alex
> > >
> > >
> > >> ????qingran?????????????????????
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> ????????????????????????????????????
> > >>>> ?^_^
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ??9???????????????
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:59:30 +0800
> > From: Coly Li <colyli at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> > To: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM
> > Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > Message-ID: <4822A4D2.9050805 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> > > Coly Li ??:
> > >> Bill Xu wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hamo ??:
> > >>>
> > >>>> ??????????????????????????????????
> > >>>> ????????????????
> > >>>>
> > >>
> > >> ???????????????????????????????????
> > >> ???????????????
> > >> ???????????????????????
> > >>
> > >
> > > ???dtrace??call stack :)
> > > ???demo??
> > ??demo?????????demo??????????????????????????????
> > ????????????????7???????????????????????????????ext4
> > ???????
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> ????qingran?????????????????????
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
> > >>>>> ???
> > >>>>> ?^_^
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ??9???????????????
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Thanks
> > Coly
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:51:39 +0800
> > From: Jian-xiang Alex Peng <Alex.Peng at Sun.COM>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> > To: colyli at gmail.com
> > Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > Message-ID: <4822A2FB.8070104 at sun.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8
> > Coly Li ??:
> > > Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> > >
> > >> Coly Li ??:
> > >>
> > >>> Bill Xu wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hamo ??:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> ??????????????????????????????????
> > >>>>> ????????????????
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>> ???????????????????????????????????
> > >>> ???????????????
> > >>> ???????????????????????
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> ???dtrace??call stack :)
> > >> ???demo??
> > >>
> > > ??demo?????????demo??????????????????????????????
> > > ????????????????7???????????????????????????????ext4
> > > ???????
> > >
> > ??????code????qingran/bill?????????
> > >
> > >
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> ????qingran?????????????????????
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
> > >>>>>> ???
> > >>>>>> ?^_^
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ??9???????????????
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:18:57 +0800
> > From: Coly Li <colyli at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> > To: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM
> > Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > Message-ID: <4822A961.2090606 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> > > Coly Li ??:
> > >> Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Coly Li ??:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Bill Xu wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hamo ??:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> ??????????????????????????????????
> > >>>>>> ????????????????
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>> ???????????????????????????????????
> > >>>> ???????????????
> > >>>> ???????????????????????
> > >>>>
> > >>> ???dtrace??call stack :)
> > >>> ???demo??
> > >>>
> > >> ??demo?????????demo????????????????????
> > >> ??????????
> > >> ????????????????7??????????????????
> > >> ?????????????ext4
> > >> ???????
> > >>
> > >
> > > ??????code????qingran/bill?????????
> > Code????????????????????????????? ?????????????code???5
> > ?????????????
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> ????qingran?????????????????????
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ?????????????????????????????????
> > >>>>>>> ???
> > >>>>>>> ?^_^
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ??9???????????????
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Thanks
> > Coly
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:11:00 +0800
> > From: Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> > To: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM
> > Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > Message-ID: <4822A784.3030307 at zeuux.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> > > ??????code????qingran/bill?????????
> > >
> > ????
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:52:51 +0800
> > From: Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> > To: Alex.Peng at Sun.COM
> > Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > Message-ID: <4822BF63.5040000 at zeuux.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> > Jian-xiang Alex Peng wrote:
> > > Coly Li ??:
> > >
> > >> Bill Xu wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Hamo ??:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > >> ???????????????????????
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > ???dtrace??call stack :)
> > > ???demo??
> > >
> > ??????????????????????
> > ??????????????? ????????????????????
> > ??????????...
> > > -Alex
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> ????qingran?????????????????????
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 5/7/08, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Xia Qingran wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> ??6??????????????????? :D
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> ????????????????????????????????????
> > >>>>> ?^_^
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ??9???????????????
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> > >
> > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > > http://www.zeuux.org
> > --
> > ???
> > Xia Qingran
> > qingran at zeuux.org
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 17:51:42 +0800
> > From: Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ????????????
> > To: Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org>
> > Cc: xiawu <xiawu at zeuux.org>, zeuux-www at zeuux.org, Zeuux
> > <zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>
> > Message-ID: <4822CD2E.4050204 at zeuux.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> > ?????????
> > ????????????zeuux-www at zeuux.org??CC?zeuux-
> > universe at zeuux.org??????????????????????????
> > ??????builder?????????????????????????
> > builder?????????????????????? XHTML?CSS?????
> > ??????????
> > Xia Qingran ??:
> > > ?95%?????????CSS?
> > > http://jorux.com/archives/95-websites-of-china-need-to-rewrite-css/
> > >
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:56:37 +0800
> > From: Jianjun Kong <kongjianjun at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ??????4??2008?5?10????? ???Ext4 ??????
> > To: Hamo <hamo.by at gmail.com>
> > Cc: zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > Message-ID: <20080508095637.GB6875 at ubuntu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> > On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 09:05:12AM +0800, Hamo wrote:
> > > ???????????????????ext4??????????????????????????
> > ??????????????????????????????????????
> > ????????????????????????
> > ????????????????????????linux???????????????????
> > --
> > | If you seems to know whatever, you will do nothing very well.
> > | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > | Jianjun Kong | www.kongove.cn
> > | Xi'an Institute of Post & Telecommunications
> > ------------------------------
> > Message: 10
> > Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 18:21:13 +0800
> > From: " ?? " <xia.wu.cn at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe] ????????????
> > To: "Bill Xu" <bill at zeuux.org>
> > Cc: zeuux-www at zeuux.org, Zeuux <zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <a85bb34e0805080321p54cead97ie443ced194203830 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"
> > 2008/5/8 Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org>:
> > > ?????????
> > >
> > > ????????????zeuux-www at zeuux.org??CC?zeuux-
> > > universe at zeuux.org??????????????????????????
> > >
> > > ?????"builder"????????????????????????
> > > builder?????????????????????? XHTML?CSS?????
> > > ??????????
> > ???????????learing css???????????????????
> > >
> > > Xia Qingran ??:
> > > > "95%?????????CSS"
> > > > http://jorux.com/archives/95-websites-of-china-need-to-rewrite-css/
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> > >
> > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > > http://www.zeuux.org
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://www.zeuux.org/pipermail/zeuux-universe/attachments/20080508/21132bdd/attachment.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
> > End of zeuux-universe Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
> > *********************************************
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
> --
> ???
> Xia Qingran
> qingran at zeuux.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From zhangweiwu at realss.com  Mon May 12 18:30:44 2008
From: zhangweiwu at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:30:44 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3pldXV4LXByZXNzXSDor7flpKflrrbluK4=?=
 =?utf-8?b?5Yqp5a6h6ZiF44CK5ZOy5oCd6Ieq55Sx6L2v5Lu25omL5YaM44CL?=
In-Reply-To: <4821CC4C.4050001@realss.com>
References: <481F03F2.1040208@zeuux.org>
	<200805061107249298992@hzbook.com>	<481FD6BC.3040300@zeuux.org>
	<4821CC4C.4050001@realss.com>
Message-ID: <48281C54.6010004@realss.com>

Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????????????????????????????
> ??????????????????????????learning curve???
> ????????????OpenOffice?Tex?????????filezilla?lftp
> ??????????jedit ?vim????????????lftp??????
> ?????filezilla??????????????????????????
> ????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
Ubuntu?????????Windows????????????????????
?????SQL?????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????? jedit?????
?gedit???????crash??????vim???????????????
??????????????vim????????????????vim???
??????gedit???????????????????????????
?????????jedit???????JDK?SCIM????????bug???
????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????

   1. ??????????????
   2. ???????????????



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: [thelist] Developing in Linux
Date: 	Mon, 12 May 2008 18:02:37 +0800
From: 	Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com>
Reply-To: 	thelist at lists.evolt.org <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
To: 	thelist at lists.evolt.org <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
References: 	<1210528215.6398.4.camel at ubuntu-hp>
<20080512033023.GA23519 at hank.org> <1210577724.6287.2.camel at ubuntu-hp>



Fred Jones wrote:
>> Those points seem rather minor.  I can think of a lot more painful
>> things about using Linux.
>>     
>
> LOL
>
> All told I think I am not ready for Linux right now. Or it's not ready
> for me.
>
>   

Hi. Just before you leave Ubuntu for Windows: maybe you would be
interested to use Jedit on Windows? JEDIT is free software and has a lot
of plug-ins. As an editor for developer, it should be able to handle big
files easier. GEdit was like notepad in Windows as JEDIT is like
UltraEdit in Windows. They are not targeting the same group of users.

If you mostly use cross-platform software, it should be easy to decide
to switch to Ubuntu any time in the future when you want to. One of my
friend uses Thunderbird for email, Mozilla for browsing and Eclipse for
development, than his switch to Linux was quite smooth and easy, every
software I use was like it was before, there are only a few
Linux-specific problems. For him the major reason to switch away from
Windows is dis-appreciation of a lot of MS' doings on non-technical
level (e.g. installing XPS printer for everybody and report there are no
known software to open PDF document format in their online library).




From bill在zeuux.org  Wed May 14 13:53:15 2008
From: bill在zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:53:15 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?W+acgOaWsOaWh+eroOaOqOiNkO+8veiHqg==?=
 =?utf-8?b?55Sx6L2v5Lu26L+Q5Yqo77ya5LuO5Yib5LiW57qq5YiwR05VIEdQTCB2ZXJz?=
 =?utf-8?q?ion_2?=
Message-ID: <482A7E4B.6000307@zeuux.org>

大家好，

我和Richard Stallman以对话的形式写了一篇关于自由软件运动早期历史的文章： 
《自由软件运动：从创世纪到GNU GPL version 2》

中文版：
http://www.zeuux.org/philosophy/billxu-rms-fsm-ancient-to-gplv2.cn.html

英文版：
http://www.zeuux.org/philosophy/billxu-rms-fsm-ancient-to-gplv2.html

本文全面阐述了自由软件运动的历史，时间跨度从197X年，一直到2007年GNU GPL 
v3发布之前。披露了很多国内朋友并不了解历史，有助于大家更加全面理解自由软 
件运动。

欢迎大家在保持文章的完整性的情况下转载，并注明文章的出处，普及自由软件思想。

happy hacking

徐继哲
哲思自由软件社区


From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Thu May 15 08:44:22 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:44:22 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?d2luZG93czIwMDjliZHmjIdsaW51eOS4kw==?=
	=?utf-8?b?5bGe6auY5Zyw55qE6IOM5ZCO?=
In-Reply-To: <889df83e0805140933l21661b2bl8416070fdb884cb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <889df83e0805140933l21661b2bl8416070fdb884cb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805141744l76d839b3i5d2bcb06d5cd0d7f@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/15 blackjack xu <blackjack.xu在gmail.com>:
> 作者 ： 上海WWW.17LAMP.NET开源社区 Andrew
是哪，推动Linux 的话，不拉上M$ 说不过去的，
就和美国人的国粹，骂約翰牛类似，
BS M＄ 已经是文化了...

>
> 以下是网络上一段win2008介绍：
>
> Windows Server 2008的前身是Longhorn
> Server，变化比较大就是网络内核栈。在网络传输性能上有大幅提高，同时拥有更人性化的管理界面-服务器管理器和PowerShell脚本支持。与
> Windows Server 2003的IIS6相比Win2008的IIS7在处理PHP上有了显著的提高，同时拥有Windows
> Vista操作系统的Aero主题。在应用服务器上，用户可以通过选择核心安装方式以Console为主的管理方式，让系统不加载GUI环境下运行，让服
> 务器更稳定安全，全新的虚拟化技术让你的分布式应用更节省企业开支。
>
> 基于网站架构技术的角度讲，win2008的改进弥补一直以来为人所诟病的IIS＋PHP的尴尬组合，PHP性能的提高就是直接向
> 传统的LAMP(Linux+Apache+MySQL+Php/Python)黄金架构的冲击。虽然说构建LAMP仍然具有一次性的搭设成本价格优势，
> 但是如果算上人员维护成本，显然竞争力就要下降一截。在长期运行服务器或者频繁配置服务器的情况下，LAMP的成本优势其实没有想象中的那么乐观。
>
> Readmore : http://www.17lamp.net/blog/editor/viewpoint/20080515001531
> --
> 开源需要新思路：http://www.17lamp.net/blog/blackjack/viewpoint/2007101013
>
> blog:http://www.17lamp.net/blog/blackjack



-- 
'''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From bill在zeuux.org  Thu May 15 21:35:25 2008
From: bill在zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:35:25 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?MjAwOOW5tOWTsuaAneiHqueUsei9r+S7tg==?=
 =?utf-8?q?=E5=B3=B0=E4=BC=9A_/_ZEUUX_Free_Software_Summit_2008?=
Message-ID: <482C3C1D.5030008@zeuux.org>

*［2008年5月15日，中国北京，哲思自由软件社区］*什么是自由软件？自由软件 
强调的是用户运行、学习、修改和发行软件的自由，而不是价格。具体来讲，自由 
软件赋予了用户如下4个自由度：

   0. 出于任何目的，运行软件的自由。
   1. 学习软件如何工作，以及为了满足自己的需要修改软件的自由。（显然，这
      个自由度的前提是能够访问软件的源代码）
   2. 为了帮助你的邻居，将软件拷贝给他的自由。
   3. 为了能够让整个社团受益，公开发行改进之后的软件的自由。（显然，这个
      自由度的前提是能够访问软件的源代码）

Richard Stallman在1983年发起了自由软件运动。经过25年的发展，自由软件已经 
在各个领域取得了巨大的成功。在我们的日常生活和工作中，自由软件已经成为不 
可或缺的一部分。

为了帮助中国自由软件社区，甚至整个IT产业充分理解自由软件，哲思自由软件社 
区将于2008年5月24日－5月31日在北京、上海和西安三地分别举办“2008年哲思自 
由软件峰会”。参加此次峰会的演讲嘉宾有：Richard Stallman、倪光南、霍亮、 
王星耀、Akira Urushibata、李欣、徐继哲等。峰会的赞助商是SUN，Intel和新浪 
网；峰会的合作伙伴是：自由软件基金会、GNU工程、互动在线、华章公司、 
TechWeb、China-Pub、CSDN、清华大学、Unix-Center.net、ChinaUnix.net等。

哲思自由软件峰会是开放式活动，参会者不需提前报名，免费参加。欢迎大家踊跃 
参加哲思自由软件峰会！

关于哲思自由软件峰会的详细信息请访问哲思自由软件社区网站：http: 
//www.zeuux.org。

http://www.zeuux.org/campaign/zeuux-freedom-summit-2008.cn.html

徐继哲
哲思自由软件社区

*[Beijing, China May 15, 2008 ZEUUX Free Software Community]* What is 
Free Software? Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, 
copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More 
precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the 
software:

   0. The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
   1. The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your
      needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for
      this.
   2. The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor
      (freedom 2).
   3. The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements
      to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3).
      Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

Richard Stallman launched the Free Software Movement in 1983. Through 
the evolution of 25 years, Free Software has achieved great the 
successes in many fields and has been an essential part of our living 
and working.

To help China Free Software community or even the whole IT industry to 
understand what is Free Software, ZEUUX Free Software Community will 
hold the ZEUUX Free Software Summit 2008 in Beijing, Shanghai and Xi'an 
from May 24 to May 31, 2008. Speakers attending this summit are Richard 
Stallman, Ni Guangnan, Leon Huo, Sin-Yaw Wang, Akira Urushibata, Li Xin, 
Bill Xu and so on. The patrons of the summit are Sun Mirosystem and 
Intel, and SINA.com. The cooperators are Free Software Foundation, GNU 
Project, Hoodong.com, HZ Books, Techweb.com.cn, China-Pub.com, CSDN.net, 
Tsinghua University, Unix-Center.net, ChinaUnix.net and so on.

ZEUUX Free Software Summit is an open conference. It is no need to sign 
up and anyone can join it without fees. It's pleased for anyone to join 
the ZEUUX Free Software Summit 2008.

For more details of ZEUUX Free Software Summit 2008, please refer to the 
website of ZEUUX Free Software Community, http://www.zeuux.org.

http://www.zeuux.org/campaign/zeuux-freedom-summit-2008.html

Bill Xu
ZEUUX Free Software Community


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From jiang.du在live.com  Thu May 15 22:23:32 2008
From: jiang.du在live.com (Jiang Du)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:23:32 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?gb2312?b?emV1dXgtdW5pdmVyc2Ug1arSqiwgvu0gOSwg?=
	=?gb2312?b?t6KyvCAyMQ==?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1210824000.44006.zeuux-universe@zeuux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1210824000.44006.zeuux-universe@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W5189C489F54F3BA85B30ACF7C90@phx.gbl>


�����治�����������������������tf8������ailinglist����dz��ã����������> From: zeuux-universe-request在zeuux.org> Subject: zeuux-universe ժҪ, ��, ���� 21> To: zeuux-universe在zeuux.org> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:00:00 +0800> > �� zeuux-universe ������������д���zeuux-universe在zeuux.org> > Ҫ�����˶��������Է������> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe> ����� zeuux-universe-request在zeuux.org> ��������help'��ʼ���> > �����������> zeuux-universe-owner在zeuux.org> �ϵ����б������> > ���������������ı������� "Re:> Contents of zeuux-universe digest..."����> > > �����:> > 1. [����������������Ӵ���͵�GNU> GPL version 2 (Bill Xu)> 2. Re: windows2008��ָlinuxר��ߵصı���oom.Quiet)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:53:15 +0800> From: Bill Xu <bill在zeuux.org>> Subject: [zeuux-universe]> [����������������Ӵ���͵�GNU GPL> version 2> To: Zeuux <zeuux-universe在zeuux.org>> Cc: �ӭϼ <meng在csdn.net>> Message-ID: <482A7E4B.6000307在zeuux.org>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed> > ��ã�> > ���ichard Stallman��Ի�����д�һƪ������������ʷ���£� > �������������Ӵ���͵�GNU GPL version 2��> > ���棺> http://www.zeuux.org/philosophy/billxu-rms-fsm-ancient-to-gplv2.cn.html> > Ӣ��棺> http://www.zeuux.org/philosophy/billxu-rms-fsm-ancient-to-gplv2.html> > ���ȫ��������������ʱ���ȴ�97X���һֱ��2007�GNU GPL > v3����֮ǰ���¶��ܶ�����������ʷ������������� > �������> > ��ӭ��ڱ����µ�������ת�����ע����ij����������˼���> > happy hacking> > ���� �˼�������> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:44:22 +0800> From: Zoom.Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe]> windows2008��ָlinuxר��ߵصı���o: "blackjack xu" <blackjack.xu在gmail.com>> Cc: 17LAMP在googlegroups.com, Zeuux <zeuux-universe在zeuux.org>> Message-ID:> <9dad9f0a0805141744l76d839b3i5d2bcb06d5cd0d7f在mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8> > 2008/5/15 blackjack xu <blackjack.xu在gmail.com>:> > �� �� ���WWW.17LAMP.NET��Դ�� Andrew> �������Linux �Ļ�������M$ ˵�����> �ͺ�������s��ţ����> BS M��Ѿ������...> > >> > ������һ��in2008����> >> > Windows Server 2008�����Longhorn> > Server���仯�Ƚϴ�����������������������ͬʱӵ�����Ĺ���-���������owerShell�ű�֧�֡��> > Windows Server 2003��IS6���in2008��IS7����PHP����������ͬʱӵ�Windows> > Vista������ero�����Ӧ������������������İ�װ��ʽ�ConsoleΪ��Ĺ����ʽ���ϵͳ�����UI������������> > �����ȫ��ȫ������������ķֲ�ʽӦ�����֧��> >> > ��վ�ܹ�����ĽǶȽ���win2008�ĸĽ�һֱ��Ϊ��ڸ����IS��PHP�������PHP������������ ��ͳ��AMP(Linux+Apache+MySQL+Php/Python)�ƽ���ij����Ȼ˵����LAMP�Ȼ������ԵĴ��ɱ��۸�ƣ�> > �������Աά���ɱ����Ȼ����������һ�ء����������������������������LAMP�ijɱ����ʵû����������ۡ�> >> > Readmore : http://www.17lamp.net/blog/editor/viewpoint/20080515001531> > --> > ��Դ�Ҫ�˼·��http://www.17lamp.net/blog/blackjack/viewpoint/2007101013> >> > blog:http://www.17lamp.net/blog/blackjack> > > > -- > '''�����ʼ���������˵��!> PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!> '''http://zoomquiet.org> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.> > ------------------------------> > _______________________________________________> zeuux-universe mailing list> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!> http://www.zeuux.org> > ��zeuux-universe ժҪ, ��, ���� 21> *********************************************
_________________________________________________________________
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
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From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Sun May 18 11:53:04 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:53:04 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBbQ1BlWF0g6Kqw6KaB55yL5L2g55qE?=
	=?utf-8?b?56iL5byP56K877yf?=
In-Reply-To: <0016e645b798376b06044d6d96e9@google.com>
References: <0016e645b798376b06044d6d96e9@google.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805172053q5da7b8f3s92a5f4690a7001ea@mail.gmail.com>

深层的原因是这样的嘛？
社区的成员对自个儿的代码是这么不经意的嘛？

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: pnt <zhengy在gmail.com>
Date: 2008/5/17
Subject: [CPeX] 誰要看你的程式碼？
To: mindex在googlegroups.com






Sent to you by pnt via Google Reader:


誰要看你的程式碼？<http://tetralet.luna.com.tw/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=202&blogId=1>
via 今天的 Tetralet 又在唧唧喳喳了 <http://tetralet.luna.com.tw/index.php?blogId=1> by
Tetralet on 5/17/08

最近一個很轟動的新聞：Debian 的 Packager 總愛打些怪怪的 patch 已不是新聞，但這次卻闖了大禍。Debian 的
openssl套件最近爆出了一個大漏洞，Debian（約在
2006 年 5 月）不知為何 <http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=363516>把
openssl 套件裡用來產生亂數種子的程式碼給移除掉了，導致用這些版本的 openssl 所產生的 SSH
金鑰有一定的規則可循，非常容易被暴力攻擊所破解。如果您的
SSH 金鑰是使用以下的作業系統所產生的：

   -

   Debian 4.0 (etch)
   -

   Ubuntu 7.04 (Feisty)
   -

   Ubuntu 7.10 (Gutsy)
   -

   Ubuntu 8.04 LTS (Hardy)

那麼就很可能會受到這個漏洞的影響。您可以利用 sudo ssh-vulnkey -a 指令來檢查您系統裡所有的 SSH 金鑰， 若測試結果為
COMPROMISED，請立即昇級您的 libopenssl 套件並使用 ssh-keygen 指令重新產生一個新的金鑰。若您的 SSH 伺服器是使用
SSH 金鑰來做認証<http://tetralet.luna.com.tw/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=59&blogId=1>的，請務必同時更新您的
authorized_keys 檔案以免到時無法登入您的 SSH Server。

而系統中其它會使用到 openssl 來產生金鑰的套件，像是 ipopd-openssl、postfix-tls、uw-imapd 及
apache-openssl 等等，也請同時更新這些套件所使用的 SSL 金鑰。請參考 [SECURITY] [DSA 1571-1] New
openopenssl packages fix predictable random number
generator<http://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/2008/msg00152.html>或您系統中的
/usr/share/doc/openssh-server/README.compromised-keys.gz 以取得更多的資訊。

openssl/openssh 應該算是一個系統裡最最基本的元件了。敝人安裝 Debian GNU/Linux 後第一件事就是把 SSH
Server裝起來，然後遠端操控。加上 Debian 本身是極受歡迎的的 GNU/Linux 發行版，基於 Debian GNU/Linux
的發行版（像是
Ubuntu 或是 Konppix）可以說是不計其數。個人推估全世界的 Linux 中約有 1/3 受到此漏洞的影響，災情可以說十分慘重。

以 Debian GNU/Linux 受歡迎的程度，以及 openssl 函式庫的普及性，爆出一個如此愚蠢的漏洞是不可思議的，這可是讓 Debian
Project 頗覺臉上無光。但，與其批評 Debian 套件品質管理不佳，個人卻認為：『這是遲早的事。簡單得說，誰要看你的程式碼？』

記得很多人都說，Open Source 專案的程式碼漏洞較少，因為『原始碼是公開的，每一個人都可以看，當然程式的漏洞因而有效降低了』。但
openssl這件事卻告訴我們，這種觀點是經不起事實驗証的。那麼多人在用著 Debian GNU/Linux，那麼多的應用程式會用到
openssl 函式庫，但那麼大一個漏洞擺在那整整 2 年卻無人發現。是的，Open Source 專案的程式碼是公開的，但基本上沒人會去看。

更進一步說，整個 Open Source
的世界其實都是建構在如此薄弱的基礎上。當某人推出了一個好用的程式，除非特意去剝開來看，否則誰曉得裡面在搞什麼鬼？就算剝開來看了，真有什麼問題有時
就連原始開發者都搞不清楚了，更何況只是花了 5 分鐘來 trace code
的使用者？有時就算找到了問題點，解決的手法也多是頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳的緊急手段，若沒有對整個程式的全盤了解，那些修正碼真的能用嗎？這卓實令人懷疑。於
是如此東修西補的結果，程式碼最後變成疊床架屋繁雜無當難以維護也就不令人意外了。

以個人最愛的 IceWM 為例。之前 Pidgin 的 Tray Icon 在 IceWM 上大小異常。不久 IceWM 便推出了解決方案：當 Tray
Icon 的 width 小於 height 時，強迫讓 width 等於 height。呃... 憑良心說：這算是解決方案嗎？

而不只是程式開發者。像是套件維護者、文件寫作者、翻譯者等等，都有類似的問題。有很多提交出來的修正檔其實並無法解決問題。有很多了不起的專案卻被打包成了不堪用的套件。而在翻譯時只是做做簡繁轉換的也比比皆是。甚至故意夾帶惡意程式碼等情事也時有耳聞。而會有誰特意去剝開來看裡面可能會發生什麼問題呢？如果再加上不甚用心的維護團隊，這簡直是一場大災難。想想看：連以龜毛著稱的
Debian Project 都會在 openssl 如此重要的套件上犯上這種不該犯的錯誤了，那麼其它的 Linux 發行套件呢？真讓人不敢再想下去了。

當然了，Debian 成名已久，這次的
openssl或許僅是單一事件事件罷了。不過這也給我們一個很大的警愓：別再怠惰了，找個時間，替自己的專案、套件、翻譯成果全部好好重看一次吧。Open
Source
的世界乃是根基於每個使用者身上，若每一個人連自己的管區都不肯花費心力好好維護的話，那麼希望 Open Source 能發展到什麼地步也只是癡人說夢罷了。

但在此同時，也別奢望會有什麼人會花費心力替您維護那些程式碼。自己的東西，還是憑藉著自己的良知好好得做下去吧！



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-- 
'''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
-------------- 下一部分 --------------
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From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Mon May 19 11:15:02 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 11:15:02 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] How to Run a Successful Free Software Project
In-Reply-To: <5b0f08ec-9dd9-4306-bb11-c674c465188f@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
References: <5b0f08ec-9dd9-4306-bb11-c674c465188f@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805182015m483bc578m15863666ef01fc01@mail.gmail.com>

thanx for sharing!

2008/5/19 Bibby <michaelbibby在gmail.com>:
>
> Hi, all.
>
> 今天无意中找到的文档，分享一下：
>
> http://producingoss.com/
>
> Producing Open Source Software is a book about the human side of open
> source development. It describes how successful projects operate, the
> expectations of users and developers, and the culture of free
> software. The book is released under an open copyright: it is
> available in bookstores and from the publisher (O'Reilly Media), or
> you can browse or download it here.
>
> 有中文翻译版本，但还只是部分翻译。
>



-- 
'''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip.  http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From filia.tao在gmail.com  Mon May 19 13:09:01 2008
From: filia.tao在gmail.com (Tao Fei)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:09:01 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] How to Run a Successful Free Software Project
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805182015m483bc578m15863666ef01fc01@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0f08ec-9dd9-4306-bb11-c674c465188f@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805182015m483bc578m15863666ef01fc01@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <642a2c60805182209j6814da52te481a753bbc0f6db@mail.gmail.com>

去年Google Summer Of Code , Google 送的这本书 .
粗略的看过，还是比较不错的.

2008/5/19 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>:
> thanx for sharing!
>
> 2008/5/19 Bibby <michaelbibby在gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hi, all.
>>
>> 今天无意中找到的文档，分享一下：
>>
>> http://producingoss.com/
>>
>> Producing Open Source Software is a book about the human side of open
>> source development. It describes how successful projects operate, the
>> expectations of users and developers, and the culture of free
>> software. The book is released under an open copyright: it is
>> available in bookstores and from the publisher (O'Reilly Media), or
>> you can browse or download it here.
>>
>> 有中文翻译版本，但还只是部分翻译。
>>
>
>
>
> --
> '''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
> PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
> '''http://zoomquiet.org
> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip.  http://7-zip.org
> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org



-- 
Tao Fei (陶飞)
My Blog: blog.filia.cn

From fros在163.com  Mon May 19 13:10:24 2008
From: fros在163.com (fros)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:10:24 +0800 (CST)
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?gb2312?b?yKu5+rCntb/I1aOhxKywp6Oh?=
Message-ID: <48310BC0.000038.02384@bj163app6.163.com>

Ĭ����
-------------- 下一部分 --------------
һ��L���������RL: http://www.zeuux.org/pipermail/zeuux-universe/attachments/20080519/75de1489/attachment.html 

From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Mon May 19 16:28:58 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:28:58 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?55S16ISR6L2v5Lu257yW56iLIOWVhuS4mg==?=
	=?utf-8?b?5YyW5o6o5bm/?=
In-Reply-To: <7dc437b10805190122u16828093k206870ed51fa0255@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21275423.367291211183379878.JavaMail.coremail@bj163app21.163.com>
	<7dc437b10805190122u16828093k206870ed51fa0255@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805190128u119896bs22e9e3fb71294f49@mail.gmail.com>

163邮箱+QQ+汉民族复兴的基调 == 忽悠

2008/5/19 Albert Lee <hanzhupeng在gmail.com>:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: RRR335201在163.COM <rrr335201在163.com>
> Date: 2008/5/19
> Subject: 电脑软件编程 商业化推广
> To: hanzhupeng在gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   我是湖北应城沈铺中学教师饶新华。业余研究电脑软件编程。是一个关于办公及数据库方面的软件和一个数学方面的软件。第一个软件是最重要的.时间06.8.23至今.现处于测试的后期,和编写使用说明书.我有一些不明的地方,
> 如何作软件的商业化推广。望能指点,诚谢!
>
> 我的软件特点是快速方便简单.代码用的是"德非"语言。据我查看微软公司和金山公司同类型的软件,均有不方便和对于下层人民来说,使用很繁复.所以我认定,我的技术达到世界先进水平，东方技术将战胜西方技术.为中国的软件科技作贡献，为国家争光。就象是一个乡村画家去大学作报告.独具匠心,以四两拔千斤.我的软件只是从小的方面入手,在基础方面拓展开去.而微软公司的软件从大的方面切入,就象建设一幢高楼大厦，着手鸿篇专制。
>
> 对于软件，按法律，一般定为著作权，不定为专利权。专利法规定先行原则，别人后研究申报出来的同类科技，作废。而软件著作权无此规定，它说，当由于只存在同一思想途径而达到某一技术结果，有相同软件时，两人的软件无论先后，均存在著作权，不存在侵权。（打比方，就像勾股定理与哥达毕拉斯定理）我想，这是为了我国赶超国外先进软件科技而定的。另外，著作权的获得，不需要申报手续，当软件完成，自动获得。
>
> 要实现科技进入市场化,我无经验.我爸说,如果别人不要你的,你做得再好,也无用.外人也说,要成名,也需要机遇.
>
> 我想，我的软件会进入到市场，因为它是有效实用的，效果明显。我想通过向大公司转让技术，获得报酬。我担心，在谈判时，对方了解我的软件详情后，无理地说，我的软件有错，或他们不需要。拒绝我。然后他们照着我的思路，去编写代码，窃取了我的智慧。我就被骗了。
>
> 我也担心，对方唯利是图，要看我过去的成功之处，然后和我谈。我以前实在是没有作别的专门软件，甚至专业知识很欠缺。这一点，就像盲人音乐家阿丙，它没有上音乐专门学校。所以，许多人会不相信我的软件。
>
> 我的软件，必须与大公司合作，因为我一个人，不可能把整个软件做出来。因为它是一个大的软件，项目多而杂乱。而且那样也是重复，我有独创先进之处，只占很少的部分。（我知道视窗操作系统，它集合了全球许多人的智慧，也包括中国计算机专家的科技。）
>
> 对于我的软件的更多情况，我会注意严格保密。实在是怕泄密。因为我可以用一句话总结我的思想，或者只用两个字也能点明要旨。如果突破了那两个字，就"自由了"。我突破了那两个字，我就"自由了"。当我在项目研究时，我也无意中发现在外界软件的某个蛛丝马迹方面，也渗透了这种思想。但不明显。世人没有注意到。而那种思想，并不代表软件本身。我研究前，也不是从那里获取灵感。以前，我做编程练习时，忘了书上的思路，而我又无那本书，我就试着做。我没有按常规去做，是一种全新的方法，就发现这种方法是一个大的突破。它会使人睡不着觉，使人兴奋。现在，那种例题的常规思路，也常在一些书中可见。它只表明了知识的运用，没有创新。要学那个知识，弄个例题来练习以掌握知识。这就像内定了某人必须嫁某人，没有选择。可见，题目与知识之间，应当有选择权。
>
> 我在着手做对外联系，关于软件的商业化，以积累经验。在7月份我就到北京去。
>
>
>
>
>
> 湖北应城沈铺中学饶新华
>
> 邮编432419
>
> 电话: 13971963763
>
> QQ亮雨937536585,
>
> E MAIL:RRR335201在163.COM
>
> 请通过     E MAIL联系.
>
>  2008 5 19
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> ________________________________
> 中 国 最 强 网 游 --- 网 易 梦 幻 西 游 ，166 万 玩 家 同 时 在 线
>



-- 
'''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip.  http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From paradise.qingfeng在gmail.com  Mon May 19 16:45:29 2008
From: paradise.qingfeng在gmail.com (=?GB2312?B?x+W35w==?=)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:45:29 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?gb2312?b?tefE1MjtvP6x4LPMIMnM0rW7r83GueM=?=
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805190128u119896bs22e9e3fb71294f49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21275423.367291211183379878.JavaMail.coremail@bj163app21.163.com>
	<7dc437b10805190122u16828093k206870ed51fa0255@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805190128u119896bs22e9e3fb71294f49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ef598910805190145q1a49879fj802d06091bc89ac9@mail.gmail.com>

民科.......

2008/5/19 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>:
> 163邮箱+QQ+汉民族复兴的基调 == 忽悠
>
> 2008/5/19 Albert Lee <hanzhupeng在gmail.com>:
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: RRR335201在163.COM <rrr335201在163.com>
>> Date: 2008/5/19
>> Subject: 电脑软件编程 商业化推广
>> To: hanzhupeng在gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   我是湖北应城沈铺中学教师饶新华。业余研究电脑软件编程。是一个关于办公及数据库方面的软件和一个数学方面的软件。第一个软件是最重要的.时间06.8.23至今.现处于测试的后期,和编写使用说明书.我有一些不明的地方,
>> 如何作软件的商业化推广。望能指点,诚谢!
>>
>> 我的软件特点是快速方便简单.代码用的是"德非"语言。据我查看微软公司和金山公司同类型的软件,均有不方便和对于下层人民来说,使用很繁复.所以我认定,我的技术达到世界先进水平，东方技术将战胜西方技术.为中国的软件科技作贡献，为国家争光。就象是一个乡村画家去大学作报告.独具匠心,以四两拔千斤.我的软件只是从小的方面入手,在基础方面拓展开去.而微软公司的软件从大的方面切入,就象建设一幢高楼大厦，着手鸿篇专制。
>>
>> 对于软件，按法律，一般定为著作权，不定为专利权。专利法规定先行原则，别人后研究申报出来的同类科技，作废。而软件著作权无此规定，它说，当由于只存在同一思想途径而达到某一技术结果，有相同软件时，两人的软件无论先后，均存在著作权，不存在侵权。（打比方，就像勾股定理与哥达毕拉斯定理）我想，这是为了我国赶超国外先进软件科技而定的。另外，著作权的获得，不需要申报手续，当软件完成，自动获得。
>>
>> 要实现科技进入市场化,我无经验.我爸说,如果别人不要你的,你做得再好,也无用.外人也说,要成名,也需要机遇.
>>
>> 我想，我的软件会进入到市场，因为它是有效实用的，效果明显。我想通过向大公司转让技术，获得报酬。我担心，在谈判时，对方了解我的软件详情后，无理地说，我的软件有错，或他们不需要。拒绝我。然后他们照着我的思路，去编写代码，窃取了我的智慧。我就被骗了。
>>
>> 我也担心，对方唯利是图，要看我过去的成功之处，然后和我谈。我以前实在是没有作别的专门软件，甚至专业知识很欠缺。这一点，就像盲人音乐家阿丙，它没有上音乐专门学校。所以，许多人会不相信我的软件。
>>
>> 我的软件，必须与大公司合作，因为我一个人，不可能把整个软件做出来。因为它是一个大的软件，项目多而杂乱。而且那样也是重复，我有独创先进之处，只占很少的部分。（我知道视窗操作系统，它集合了全球许多人的智慧，也包括中国计算机专家的科技。）
>>
>> 对于我的软件的更多情况，我会注意严格保密。实在是怕泄密。因为我可以用一句话总结我的思想，或者只用两个字也能点明要旨。如果突破了那两个字，就"自由了"。我突破了那两个字，我就"自由了"。当我在项目研究时，我也无意中发现在外界软件的某个蛛丝马迹方面，也渗透了这种思想。但不明显。世人没有注意到。而那种思想，并不代表软件本身。我研究前，也不是从那里获取灵感。以前，我做编程练习时，忘了书上的思路，而我又无那本书，我就试着做。我没有按常规去做，是一种全新的方法，就发现这种方法是一个大的突破。它会使人睡不着觉，使人兴奋。现在，那种例题的常规思路，也常在一些书中可见。它只表明了知识的运用，没有创新。要学那个知识，弄个例题来练习以掌握知识。这就像内定了某人必须嫁某人，没有选择。可见，题目与知识之间，应当有选择权。
>>
>> 我在着手做对外联系，关于软件的商业化，以积累经验。在7月份我就到北京去。
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 湖北应城沈铺中学饶新华
>>
>> 邮编432419
>>
>> 电话: 13971963763
>>
>> QQ亮雨937536585,
>>
>> E MAIL:RRR335201在163.COM
>>
>> 请通过     E MAIL联系.
>>
>>  2008 5 19
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> ________________________________
>> 中 国 最 强 网 游 --- 网 易 梦 幻 西 游 ，166 万 玩 家 同 时 在 线
>>
>
>
>
> --
> '''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
> PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
> '''http://zoomquiet.org
> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip.  http://7-zip.org
> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org



-- 
退订Python-cn列表:https://groups.google.com/group/python-cn/subscribe
http://blog.woodpecker.org.cn/planet/
https://www.google.com/reader/shared/01132676741164412300

From cheungtifan在gmail.com  Mon May 19 19:30:19 2008
From: cheungtifan在gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:00:19 +0030
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?55S16ISR6L2v5Lu257yW56iLIOWVhuS4mg==?=
	=?utf-8?b?5YyW5o6o5bm/?=
In-Reply-To: <3ef598910805190145q1a49879fj802d06091bc89ac9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21275423.367291211183379878.JavaMail.coremail@bj163app21.163.com>
	<7dc437b10805190122u16828093k206870ed51fa0255@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805190128u119896bs22e9e3fb71294f49@mail.gmail.com>
	<3ef598910805190145q1a49879fj802d06091bc89ac9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805190430k25537b9ar6ce0db443b1b65e1@mail.gmail.com>

民科都这样。。。我还收到过类似的纸质信。。。说的是证明原子轨道理论错误什么的。。。我化学专业的，看了眼就扔一边了

On 5/19/08, 清风 <paradise.qingfeng at gmail.com> wrote:
> 民科.......
>
> 2008/5/19 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
>> 163邮箱+QQ+汉民族复兴的基调 == 忽悠
>>
>> 2008/5/19 Albert Lee <hanzhupeng at gmail.com>:
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: RRR335201 at 163.COM <rrr335201 at 163.com>
>>> Date: 2008/5/19
>>> Subject: 电脑软件编程 商业化推广
>>> To: hanzhupeng at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 我是湖北应城沈铺中学教师饶新华。业余研究电脑软件编程。是一个关于办公及数据库方面的软件和一个数学方面的软件。第一个软件是最重要的.时间06.8.23至今.现处于测试的后期,和编写使用说明书.我有一些不明的地方,
>>> 如何作软件的商业化推广。望能指点,诚谢!
>>>
>>> 我的软件特点是快速方便简单.代码用的是"德非"语言。据我查看微软公司和金山公司同类型的软件,均有不方便和对于下层人民来说,使用很繁复.所以我认定,我的技术达到世界先进水平，东方技术将战胜西方技术.为中国的软件科技作贡献，为国家争光。就象是一个乡村画家去大学作报告.独具匠心,以四两拔千斤.我的软件只是从小的方面入手,在基础方面拓展开去.而微软公司的软件从大的方面切入,就象建设一幢高楼大厦，着手鸿篇专制。
>>>
>>> 对于软件，按法律，一般定为著作权，不定为专利权。专利法规定先行原则，别人后研究申报出来的同类科技，作废。而软件著作权无此规定，它说，当由于只存在同一思想途径而达到某一技术结果，有相同软件时，两人的软件无论先后，均存在著作权，不存在侵权。（打比方，就像勾股定理与哥达毕拉斯定理）我想，这是为了我国赶超国外先进软件科技而定的。另外，著作权的获得，不需要申报手续，当软件完成，自动获得。
>>>
>>> 要实现科技进入市场化,我无经验.我爸说,如果别人不要你的,你做得再好,也无用.外人也说,要成名,也需要机遇.
>>>
>>> 我想，我的软件会进入到市场，因为它是有效实用的，效果明显。我想通过向大公司转让技术，获得报酬。我担心，在谈判时，对方了解我的软件详情后，无理地说，我的软件有错，或他们不需要。拒绝我。然后他们照着我的思路，去编写代码，窃取了我的智慧。我就被骗了。
>>>
>>> 我也担心，对方唯利是图，要看我过去的成功之处，然后和我谈。我以前实在是没有作别的专门软件，甚至专业知识很欠缺。这一点，就像盲人音乐家阿丙，它没有上音乐专门学校。所以，许多人会不相信我的软件。
>>>
>>> 我的软件，必须与大公司合作，因为我一个人，不可能把整个软件做出来。因为它是一个大的软件，项目多而杂乱。而且那样也是重复，我有独创先进之处，只占很少的部分。（我知道视窗操作系统，它集合了全球许多人的智慧，也包括中国计算机专家的科技。）
>>>
>>> 对于我的软件的更多情况，我会注意严格保密。实在是怕泄密。因为我可以用一句话总结我的思想，或者只用两个字也能点明要旨。如果突破了那两个字，就"自由了"。我突破了那两个字，我就"自由了"。当我在项目研究时，我也无意中发现在外界软件的某个蛛丝马迹方面，也渗透了这种思想。但不明显。世人没有注意到。而那种思想，并不代表软件本身。我研究前，也不是从那里获取灵感。以前，我做编程练习时，忘了书上的思路，而我又无那本书，我就试着做。我没有按常规去做，是一种全新的方法，就发现这种方法是一个大的突破。它会使人睡不着觉，使人兴奋。现在，那种例题的常规思路，也常在一些书中可见。它只表明了知识的运用，没有创新。要学那个知识，弄个例题来练习以掌握知识。这就像内定了某人必须嫁某人，没有选择。可见，题目与知识之间，应当有选择权。
>>>
>>> 我在着手做对外联系，关于软件的商业化，以积累经验。在7月份我就到北京去。
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 湖北应城沈铺中学饶新华
>>>
>>> 邮编432419
>>>
>>> 电话: 13971963763
>>>
>>> QQ亮雨937536585,
>>>
>>> E MAIL:RRR335201 at 163.COM
>>>
>>> 请通过     E MAIL联系.
>>>
>>>  2008 5 19
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> 中 国 最 强 网 游 --- 网 易 梦 幻 西 游 ，166 万 玩 家 同 时 在 线
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> '''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
>> PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
>> '''http://zoomquiet.org
>> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
>> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip.  http://7-zip.org
>> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
> --
> 退订Python-cn列表:https://groups.google.com/group/python-cn/subscribe
> http://blog.woodpecker.org.cn/planet/
> https://www.google.com/reader/shared/01132676741164412300
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Tue May 20 12:49:19 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 12:49:19 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_=5BCPeX=5D_Bloglines_-_Linux?=
	=?utf-8?b?5bmz5Y+w5LiLIuacgOezn+ezlSLnmoTnoazku7Y=?=
In-Reply-To: <1211253492.431356676.22687.sendItem@bloglines.com>
References: <1211253492.431356676.22687.sendItem@bloglines.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805192149s24e08b9ak62a2a60a28d5acc0@mail.gmail.com>

好故事! 正是GNU 倡导的自由社会的反面

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <cathayan在gmail.com>
Date: 2008/5/20
Subject: [CPeX] Bloglines - Linux平台下"最糟糕"的硬件
To: mindex在googlegroups.com


 Bloglines <http://www.bloglines.com> user *cathayan在gmail.com* has sent
this item to you.


     [image: Solidot.org] <http://solidot.org/>   *Solidot*<http://solidot.org>
奇客的资讯，重要的东西
Linux平台下"最糟糕"的硬件<http://linux.solidot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/20/0010233&from=rss>By
matrix on 讨论技术

kingliyou 写道 "长期以来人们在安装Linux之前对所搭配的硬件平台和即将安装的发行版本的兼容问题总是考虑慎之又慎 -
每个Linux发行版的发布文档中总能发现"硬件兼容列表", 对于经常上"黑名单"的设备我们需要留意。 1. Broadcom无线设备
这是一款高度成熟的产品线，甚至对于某些笔记本电脑生产商（HP，Compaq）都把它作为确省的无线网络设备。不仅仅基于它相对造价低廉的芯片组（某些C2C网站上最便宜的网卡都有可能是Broadcom的产品）相对出色的灵敏度。但是这一切都不能掩饰Broadcom在Linux下极其拙劣的表现：对于它的拳头产品BCP43XX有且仅有的Windows驱动，致使Linux用户们只有采用Alpha版本驱动，因此硬件驱动专有化是它最大的问题
2. ATI显卡 在Windows品台下游戏上的杰出表现成功掩盖了各大Linux发行商的抱怨：首当其冲的就是Mark
Shuttleworth的Ubuntu
Linux；Solidot上不少机子安装ATI显卡的朋友对此怨声载道，其最主要的原因就是ATI采取了比Broadcom更为严格的驱动专有协定 3.
希捷硬盘 如此一来"三剑客"就组成了；同样廉价，Seagate的问题不仅仅是专有驱动的问题，自去年年底Seagate所推出的"Free
Agent"于Linux的不兼容，造成了硬盘数据读取不畅，以及有可能对硬盘造成的潜在破坏使Seagate的财务部门承受了极大的压力 4. Win
Modem（软猫）可能一些Geeks甚至没有听说过（在宽带没有像现在这么铺天盖地的时候，"软猫"可是非常流行的）猜想可能是不屑使用。不管怎么说，有这么一个项目重新部署和优化了Win
Modem在Linux下的延续，热衷于DSP的Geeks可以尝试着参与进去"

<http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Ea/solidot?a=MtKEFV>
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Ef/solidot?a=gV8wlH><http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Ef/solidot?a=t1DOcH>



--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
"Copy&Paste Exchange" group.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/mindex?hl=zh-CN
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---




-- 
'''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
-------------- 下一部分 --------------
一个HTML附件被移除...
URL: http://www.zeuux.org/pipermail/zeuux-universe/attachments/20080520/cc46aacb/attachment.html 

From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Wed May 21 09:23:59 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 09:23:59 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBba3NwZWc6MTA1OV0g5L2V6IO95L2/?=
	=?utf-8?b?6Ieq55Sx6Luf6auU6KiI55Wr5a2Y5rS75pa86bq754Wp5Lq654mp5LmL?=
	=?utf-8?b?5LitPw==?=
In-Reply-To: <001636163c6dd702c6044daaf043@google.com>
References: <001636163c6dd702c6044daaf043@google.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805201823l20f422e8q97f6cc60e9c9cdb4@mail.gmail.com>

原来有理论分析的...好哪！

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: lvs <lvscar在gmail.com>
Date: 2008/5/20
Subject: [kspeg:1059] 何能使自由軟體計畫存活於麻煩人物之中?
To: kspeg在googlegroups.com






Sent to you by lvs via Google Reader:


何能使自由軟體計畫存活於麻煩人物之中?<http://people.debian.org.tw/%7Echihchun/2008/05/20/how-open-source-projects-survive-poisonous-people/>
via Rex's blah blah blah <http://people.debian.org.tw/%7Echihchun> by Rex
Tsai on 5/19/08

這其實是去年就聽過的主題，不過近來又再次接觸到所謂「麻煩人物」的攻訐，因此特意整理此段演講分享社群中人參考。也作為內省之用。

基本上，這麼一些人長年以來到處與人唱反調，

   - 若你辦了協會，他會質疑你立意不佳。
   - 若你舉辦了票選活動，他會質疑你好大喜功。
   - 若你參加了票選活動，他會說你灌票，貪圖虛名。
   - 若你不幸被安了社群職位，他會說你沽名釣譽。
   - 若你有幸取了企業或政府資源贊助，他會說你分贓利益。
   - 若你剛刻了一個新軟體，他會說架構全錯，應該依照他的先知卓見重寫。
   - 若你刻了個好用的軟體，他說嫌棄功能不全。該用其他設計健全的軟體。
   - 若你失敗的經營了軟體社群，他會理所當然要你好好反省並影射你無能。
   - 若你成功的經營了新軟體社群，他會批評你政治不正確，號招成員出走。
   - 若你….他會….

可能是透過網路溝通的誤解或短時間內的情緒問題或過度自負或天生心理殘障或後天傷害悲觀或者根本是憤世嫉俗而造成上述的行為。

大體來說，這些行為是有益於社群發展。但問題是這群人基本上拒絕合作。他們願意抱怨，不願貢獻，很多時候根本是個戳樂
(Troller)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll>
，他們以戳你為樂。你要跟他們客觀的分析問題，他們會很主觀的訴求於情緒。你誠心的想聽他們的意見，他們卻說不出個所以然。你邀他們出席聚會，他們會出污泥不染的拒絕參與。你邀他們主辦，他們會說這不是他們的使命。

到頭來，你只是自找罪受的徒勞無功。你甚至無法從討論中找出一點點建設性的意義。於是、於是你得好好的研究一個方法來辨識、管理他們。

這段標題為 "How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People" 的演講是由 Ben
Collins-Sussman <http://www.red-bean.com/sussman/> 與 Brian W.
Fitzpatrick<http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/>於 Google
Tech Talk<http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=type%3Agoogle+engEDU&page=1&lv=0&so=1>中所分享。Ben
Collins Sussman 與 Brian Fitzpatick 目前都是 Google 的工程師，兩位長久以來都致力於開發
subversion <http://subversion.tigris.org/> 計畫。

這個主題的基礎參考書是《生產開放原碼軟體，如何經營一個成功的自由軟體計畫》 (Producing Open Source Software, How
to Run a Successful Free Software Project) <http://producingoss.com/>。

若你並非自由軟體開發者也無所謂，讀完整篇文章，你會發現這裡的情境適用於普遍的狀態，包含企業、NGO、社區、社群等。因為，到處都有這樣的人存在。甚至，你也可以找到類似的商業書籍中有相似的處理建議，像是
《成功開發員工潛能的24堂課》<http://www.books.com.tw/exep/prod/booksfile.php?item=0010241474>
(Dealing with People You Can't
Stand<http://www.thericks.com/dpcs/dpcs-index.htm>)、《搞定頭痛人物》（How
to Deal With Difficult People）等書。
生產開放原碼軟體，如何經營一個成功的自由軟體計畫


身為一個想認真瞭解開放原碼 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source>或自由軟體<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software>的讀者，你肯定已經讀了
Eric S. Raymond <http://catb.org/%7Eesr/>
的教堂與市集<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596001087/>
，因而學習了所謂市集模式為你的軟體計畫帶了甚麼樣的好處，你大約也從書中習得幾個重要的準則，像是擁有使用者、儘早發表、頻繁發表等等。

不過，教堂與市集中並沒有告訴你該如何經營一個自由軟體計畫。很快你會發現，經營一個自由軟體計畫並沒有你想像中的簡單，除了各式各樣的術語<http://www.catb.org/jargon/>
與文化 <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/>，你還得學會經營社群與「管理」你的使用者們。

這本由 Karl Fogel <http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/> 所著作的
《生產開放原碼軟體，如何經營一個成功的自由軟體計畫》 <http://producingoss.com/> 傳授了所有相關的眉角
(訣竅)，主題廣泛的含括了

   - 啟動一個自由軟體專案，包含選擇專案名稱、定義計畫聲明書、計畫之資訊提供與敘述。
   - 技術基礎建設 (溝通管道之郵遞論壇、IRC、Wiki、版本控制系統、臭蟲追蹤系統)
   - 軟體專案計畫之社交行為與政治方法。
   - 資金籌措方式。
   - 溝通技巧，學習對話調性、辨識無禮/理的人、應對難搞的人、運營成長的社群。
   - 軟體套件封裝、發表、分支管理等。
   - 義工管理。
   - 授權、版權與專利等問題。

這本書非常適合剛想踏入自由軟體開發世界的開發者，也適宜任何一位想瞭解如何經營一個自由軟體計畫的讀者。
溝通

Ben Collins Sussman 與 Brian Fitzpatick
的演講主要是著重在《生產開放原碼軟體，如何經營一個成功的自由軟體計畫》<http://producingoss.com/>
一書第六章的【溝通】 <http://producingoss.com/en/communications.html>
。重點在於自由軟體計畫中，該如何辨識所謂「缺德人士」，以及如何驅離他們。

之所以需要遠離缺德鬼的原因在於，自由軟體計畫發展最重要、最有價值的唯一資源是專注參與的義工們。任何一位無恥之徒的行為都可能污染快樂開發社群中的空氣，造成計畫中的義工們分心，甚至放棄參與計畫。

然而任何一個自由軟體計畫都會碰到這樣的人。原因在於領導開發者或協調者，總是必須在權宜的狀態下作抉擇。你得抉擇分支的目標、里程碑目標、修改建議的取捨。麻煩的是，凡是決定總無法令每個人滿意。因此你得準備好接受社群的其他人所給你的挑戰或批評。

然而，大部分的情況下，社群其他成員總是可以透過合理的溝通妥協於主協調者的決策。然而，有另外一群人的反應則不是如此。這群人就是演講中討論的頭痛人物。
頭痛人物

這裡所說的頭痛人物泛指任何使軟體開發受挫的人。若要評估一個自由軟體計畫的活躍度，我們通常會計算所謂的公車指數 (Bus
factor)<http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/open-source/linus-torvalds-bus-factor/>，Bus
factor 意指重要開發成員的多寡，指數意義在於萬一火車頭成員被公車撞死，計畫持續的機會有多大。

影響公車係數的變因很多，可能是因為工作內容改變、生活形式的改變、談了戀愛、失戀、生了小孩等等。或者是浪費時間在回應頭痛人物，或者被缺德鬼激怒，因此分心而降低生產力。

最常出現的頭痛人物就是日常即興加入的新手，他們帶著全部大寫或是 'root' 的暱稱闖進 IRC 頻道或論壇，毫無禮貌的要求支援或宣告訴求。

或者是過度熱心的參與者，在演講中，提到一個案例 <http://producingoss.com/en/difficult-people.html>。在
Subversion 的發展期間，大約是 2003
年的最後幾個月，有一位人士回覆每一篇文章，以至於他在當下的排名在頭六名中，然而其他五名都是主要的開發者，而他純粹發信，如此行為嚴重影響其他開發者的產能。這當然也算是一種麻煩人物。

但頭痛人物並不見得是新手，也可能是資深的社群人士，甚至是德高望重的前輩。既然軟體由人寫成，不可避免的總會碰到缺德難搞的人事問題，也並不是成功軟體計畫的主開發者/協調者就是一個容易相處的人，例如
Linus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds> 長久以來就讓
Gnome<http://www.gnome.org/>計畫
很難過<https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html>
。

我們必須說，這樣的行為是非常不道德的。

你要知道，開放原碼社群是基於大家對名譽的重視所驅動，隱性的名譽機製為社群中的人提供了一種微妙的壓力系統，驅使人們往正向的方面發展。特別是開源軟體社群名譽壓力系統也拉引了好管閒事之徒的興趣，顯然破壞他人的名譽也是一種賺取名譽的方式。

身為一位自由軟體開發計畫的成員，你應該小心的保護專案的產能，以免計畫被老鼠屎拖累。
辨識

麻煩人物的通常有幾個主要的特徵，你可以依據這些特徵來辨識

   - 惡毒的人
      - 潑冷水、污辱現狀
      - 憤怒的索求
      - 散佈黑函
      - 刻意激怒他人
      - 偏執狂似陰謀論者、拚命指責別人
    - 自負
      - 拒絕承認他人的意見。
      - 以偏概全的主張。
      - 重啟已達成共識的話題。
    - 拒絕合作
      - 很愛抱怨，但不願意修正任何問題。
      - 不願意討論解決問題的構思。

有些人會帶著惡毒的心態踏進你的計畫裡面。他們可能會潑你冷水，將你的成就嫌棄的一文不值。另外一些人，認為你理所當然要提供服務，無論是技術支援或者是活動舉辦，你應該要
*立即妥善的滿足*他的需求。有些人會散佈黑函甚至偏執的在認為計畫後面有某種陰謀，或者刻意的激怒他人。

另外有些人則是過度自負，認為他自己的主張才是正確的，相信任何事情都有正義是非，而他們自然永遠都是正義那一方。最麻煩的是他們以偏概全的訴求，往往會綁架專案的發展方向。或者他們會過份在意每一項討論，老是重提那些已經達成共識的老話題。

另外一些人則純粹拒絕合作，他們只是不希望看到你成功。因此會帶著負面的態度慢慢的污染你周圍的空氣，直到它發出惡臭，鬧走你的成員為止。
處置

你可以發現，其實有許多麻煩似乎都是溝通的問題。事實也是，由於開放原碼社群的對話討論一向都是在網路上進行，偶爾才有面對面的接觸。誤解似乎是多少難以避免的問題。例如，有些文化避免難堪公開的指責，有些文化則痛恨私下批評，你似乎很難判斷陌生人喜歡那一種溝通方式，很容易就會觸怒對方

然而有幾個準則是通用於任何處置方式的

   - 重點 (Comprehead)
      - 保持注意力與專注力 (preserve attention and focus)
    - 防禦 (Fortify)
      - 建立一個建康的社群 (Build a healthy community)
    - 辨識 (Identify )
      - 偵測搬弄是非的跡象 (Look for tell-tale signs)
    - 消毒 (Disinfect)
      - 保持鎮靜與自我立場 (Maintain calm and stand your ground)

在實務上，有幾個事項是在演講中所分享的。其中之一是不要把自己的名字擺進程式碼裡面，因為這會造成自尊膨脹的問題，這似乎是宣示此為你的地盤，外人誤觸的禁忌，這種習慣會妨礙整體計畫的發展與自由，應該有所避免。

此外，應該避免私下溝通<http://producingoss.com/en/setting-tone.html#avoid-private-discussions>
。私下溝通是一件很容易使用的政治工具，透過私下溝通你總是可以比較輕易的做下決策。然而，這樣的行為卻排擠其他人的意見與想法。計畫成長後，你總會不停的為新來的人解釋當初的決策。總之是一種得不償失的手段。

另外則是郵遞論壇的禮儀、重啟舊議題等。特別容易發生於敵對的議題上，偶爾，你會發現有一人不停的重開那些反對他意見的對話。他的目的大約在於持續的張貼再張貼，直到對方疲累放棄，而獲得最終毫無意義的勝利感！

通常你可以很快速的辨識出這種戳樂毒瘤，原則上只要你保持情緒，客觀的進行討論通常可以達到有建設性的具體結論。然而，更多時候，戳樂會惱羞成怒的激動不已，甚至出口傷人。這種情況下，如果沒有提早為社群建立一個健康的政策防護機制，你也只能被動的請社群公斷啦。

雖然這篇文章是為了避免麻煩人物所寫，但是有時候這些人性問題也會出現在社群經營者身上。根據 Rober Kaye
的意見<http://www.oreillynet.com/conferences/blog/2006/07/oscon_how_open_source_projects.html>
，無論你是參與者或經營者，都必須具備同理心，以及以下的態度，才能在社群中廣受歡迎

   - 禮貌 (Politeness)
   - 尊重 (Respect)
   - 互信 (Trust)
   - 謙卑 (Humility)

缺乏以上態度，你也可能會犯了過度自負的毛病，而做了不受社群歡迎的錯事呢。這篇短文大約四千字主要參考由 Ben
Collins-Sussman<http://www.red-bean.com/sussman/>與 Brian
W. Fitzpatric <http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/>的演講 - "How Open Source Projects
Survive Poisonous
People<http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645>"
以及 由 Karl Fogel <http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/> 所著作的
《生產開放原碼軟體，如何經營一個成功的自由軟體計畫》 <http://producingoss.com/> 一文。敬請收聽以下演講




Things you can do from here:

   - Subscribe to Rex's blah blah
blah<http://www.google.com/reader/view/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fpeople.debian.org.tw%2F%7Echihchun%2Ffeed%2F?source=email>using
   *Google Reader*
   - Get started using Google
Reader<http://www.google.com/reader/?source=email>to easily keep up
with
   *all your favorite sites*


  --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
邮件发自 Google 列表"KsPEG"~金山过程改进组:
发言: kspeg在googlegroups.com
退订: kspeg-unsubscribe在googlegroups.com
团队列表: http://groups.google.com/group/kspeg
团队Trac: http://trac.rdev.kingsoft.net/kspeg
团队SVN: http://doc.rdev.kingsoft.net/matter
内部维基: http://wiki.rdev.kingsoft.net/moin/DMC
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---




-- 
'''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
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From bill在zeuux.org  Thu May 22 21:38:17 2008
From: bill在zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 21:38:17 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?5YWz5LqOMjAwOOW5tOWTsuaAneiHqueUsQ==?=
 =?utf-8?b?6L2v5Lu25bOw5Lya6KW/5a6J56uZ55qE5Y+Y5pu0?=
Message-ID: <48357749.8020101@zeuux.org>


        哲思自由软件峰会－西安站－西安交通大学－取消！！！

哲思自由软件社区在2007年下半年开始策划2008年5月的哲思自由软件峰会，并确 
定了活动的时间和地点。公元2008年5月12日，汶川发生大地震，这场灾难夺走了 
许多人的生命。。。 。。。

我们原定将在西安举办一场2008年哲思自由软件峰会。但考虑到西安现在的实际情 
况，我们认为现在不适合在西安举行此类大型的聚会活动。因此，我们决定取消原 
定的西安站。2008年哲思自由软件峰会的其他计划和安排，均正常执行！

愿逝去的人安息；愿活着的人坚强！

一切都会好起来！

哲思自由软件社区
2008年5月22日

http://www.zeuux.org/campaign/zeuux-freedom-summit-2008.cn.html

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From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Thu May 22 22:48:08 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 22:48:08 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?W2Z3XSAg5YWz5LqOMjAwOOW5tOWTsuaAnQ==?=
	=?utf-8?b?6Ieq55Sx6L2v5Lu25bOw5Lya6KW/5a6J56uZ55qE5Y+Y5pu0?=
In-Reply-To: <48357749.8020101@zeuux.org>
References: <48357749.8020101@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805220748i6aa0c176j4078b86036f98613@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/22 Bill Xu <bill在zeuux.org>:
> 哲思自由软件峰会－西安站－西安交通大学－取消！！！
>
谅解,哀思...

> 哲思自由软件社区在2007年下半年开始策划2008年5月的哲思自由软件峰会，并确定了活动的时间和地
> 点。公元2008年5月12日，汶川发生大地震，这场灾难夺走了许多人的生命。。。 。。。
>
> 我们原定将在西安举办一场2008年哲思自由软件峰会。但考虑到西安现在的实际情况，我们认为现在不适合
> 在西安举行此类大型的聚会活动。因此，我们决定取消原定的西安站。2008年哲思自由软件峰会的其他计划和安排，均正常执行！
>
> 愿逝去的人安息；愿活着的人坚强！
>
> 一切都会好起来！
>
> 哲思自由软件社区
> 2008年5月22日
>
> http://www.zeuux.org/campaign/zeuux-freedom-summit-2008.cn.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>



-- 
'''过程改进乃是开始催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PI keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From julien.gong在gmail.com  Fri May 23 00:35:33 2008
From: julien.gong在gmail.com (Julien GONG Min)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 00:35:33 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?wrnDmMOTw5oyMDA4w4TDqsOVw5zDi8K8w5c=?=
 =?utf-8?b?w5TDk8OJw4jDrcK8w77Ct8OlwrvDocOOw7fCsMKyw5XCvsK1w4TCscOkwrg=?=
 =?utf-8?b?w7w=?=
In-Reply-To: <48357749.8020101@zeuux.org>
References: <48357749.8020101@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <5B852D56-C5A8-44AE-9CF5-DB25A9D52DDF@gmail.com>

Noted. I'll make some change in Sina's page.


Sent from my iPod

On May 22, 2008, at 21:38, Bill Xu <bill在zeuux.org> wrote:

> 哲思自由软件峰会－西安站－西安交通大学－取消！ 
> ！！
>
> 哲思自由软件社区在2007年下半年开始策划2008年5月的 
> 哲思自由软件峰会，并确定了活动的时间和地 点。公 
> 元2008年5月12日，汶川发生大地震，这场灾难夺走了许 
> 多人的生命。。。 。。。
>
> 我们原定将在西安举办一场2008年哲思自由软件峰会。 
> 但考虑到西安现在的实际情况，我们认为现在不适合  
> 在西安举行此类大型的聚会活动。因此，我们决定取 
> 消原定的西安站。2008年哲思自由软件峰会的其他计划 
> 和安排，均正常执行！
>
> 愿逝去的人安息；愿活着的人坚强！
>
> 一切都会好起来！
>
> 哲思自由软件社区
> 2008年5月22日
>
> http://www.zeuux.org/campaign/zeuux-freedom-summit-2008.cn.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
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From zhangweiwu在realss.com  Sun May 25 08:40:09 2008
From: zhangweiwu在realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 08:40:09 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
 =?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
Message-ID: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com>

报歉，此事OT，但是我觉得重要，还是发上来了。

http://www.linuxbanks.cn 已经更新此信息。

这样，近来支持Linux的网银又少了。

如果有人可以协助证实福建兴业银行的支持情况，或可以多一家在列表里。现在我
们的选择只余下了：
> 快捷提示： 对于非Windows用户，就非Windows平台支持程度看，如果您的所在
> 地有浦东发展银行，优选浦东发展银行。如无，看本地是否有广东发展银行，次
> 选广东发展银行 （开通网上支付需使用IE、不被易趣支持，快钱对其支持似有
> 问题）。如仍然没有，迁就之下可使用农行电子支付卡（限每日200元交易）。
我自己现在使用广发银行了，因为我和我女朋友申请浦发信用卡都不成功（似因为
我们工作单位是厦门的，浦发业务不覆盖；但是他们是总不说申请失败的原因
的），而原本打算申请浦发信用卡后，申请其借记卡的。现在既然信用卡申请不成
功，手上正好有一张linux可用的网银（广发），就懒得再去申请浦发信用卡了。

-- 
Real Softservice

Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 135 9950 2413
http://www.realss.com


From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Sun May 25 21:21:06 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 21:21:06 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSBSZTogUk1T5ryU6K6y55qEMH4y?=
	=?utf-8?b?MOWIhumSnw==?=
In-Reply-To: <bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bb2572a80805250611o46589e8ahfb8733757546fba@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250611m79477d36m8b57b7eeaf4df1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/25 easthero <easthero在gmail.com>:
> puzhengcai 写道:
> 昨天赶了几个小时的车程转了两次地铁问了N次路，终于找到了复旦大学新闻学院。现在详细汇报一下哲思自由软件峰会的感受。图片由于没有数码相机，是陌生朋友帮我照了几张，等他传过来我再奉上
> Razz
>
感谢大家的体验报道!
哲思组织峰会,最重要的原因就是给广大自由软件爱好者一个名正言顺的游玩机会! ;)

> 我特地买了自由软件T恤去参加会议，十二点多到的，当时会场人不是太多，等了约半个小时哲思自由软件社区创办人徐继哲来了，也许我是为数不多的穿他们自由软件T恤来的，他看到我就更我打了招呼，我和他握了手，呵呵，终于见到只有在网上见到的自由软件先锋了。我说过会儿能不能和Richard
> Stallman拍个照，他说当然可以。（很高兴，最后我和他也照了两张，过后奉上）哈哈，今天T恤没白穿啊！
>
> 过了一会儿Richard Stallman来了！全场响起热烈的掌声，他和他女友，以及那个日本的Akira
> Urushibata刚从宾馆赶来，一来到会场以为Richard
> Stallman会寒暄几句，结果没有，他先是坐下来，打开他的一个包拿出OLPC，很酷（会议结束时大家都上前与他亲密接触，我看看了OLPC用的系统，结果屏幕是像GNU/Linux刚启动时的画面，没有看到菜单之类的图形界面，我想还是算了我反正看不懂，估计他在编程吧）然后Richard
> Stallman脱下鞋，脱掉袜子，赤着脚在会场那么多人面前一口喝着荼饮料一手用着OLPC，不停的在敲键盘！他什么话也没有，只在弄他的东西！！！很聚精会神！再说说他演讲的时候吧，在中间他突然停了下来，以为是拿什么东西有用，结果他翻开包拿出一包大概是巧克力，哈哈全场的听众都笑了，然后他一边听一边讲他的自由软件！
> 完了后，他让自由提问！
>
> 我争取到了一个提问机会，我想提问什么自由软件之类的是白痴问题，不如来点有气氛的问题。因为我英语很不咱的，又有翻译（听会的有许多一流的专家哈哈），我提问到：
> Richard Stallman先生你女朋友是不是看到你贴在网上的征求女友的帖子后认识你的？我说就这一个问题，他回答到："Yes,she
> knows free software."大家都鼓掌欢笑，哈哈，我激动死了，我然后说到：谢谢Richard
> Stallman先生创造了自由软件，以及所有为自由软件做出贡献的人。由于当时太激动，也是没注意翻译有没有把这话翻译给Richard
> Stallman，哈哈，不过这不重要了。
>
> 大家看完，也许觉得没有图片很遗憾，我过会会尽量补上。
>
> 2008/5/25 easthero <easthero在gmail.com>:
>> 发信人: BetterLife (这个ID不太冷), 信区: Unix
>> 标  题: Re: 有点同情Intel的那哥们
>> 发信站: 日月光华 (2008年05月25日19:45:49 星期天)
>>
>> 我感到很好笑的场面有：
>>
>> 当提意见的人对Intel的那哥们大声疾呼：本次峰会的主题是Free software，不是Open S
>> ource 的时候，一直埋头写程序的教主突然站立起来象孩子一样鼓掌欢呼。可惜没来得及
>> 拍摄下来，期待DV。
>>
>> 最后教主当面教训Intel的那哥们不该用Windows，搞的演讲者很无奈。
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:11 PM, easthero <easthero在gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 发信人: FreePeter (太阳照常升起), 信区: Unix
>>> 标  题: RMS演讲的0~20分钟
>>> 发信站: 日月光华 (2008年05月25日14:42:31 星期天)
>>>
>>> 整理 by FreePeter
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello & Happy Hacking (Laugh, Applause)
>>>
>>> Society usually teaches people to judge software packages by practical concern
>>> s only
>>> is this program convenient,
>>> is this program reliable,
>>> is it cheap,
>>> and to ignore the most important questions:
>>> if I use this program,
>>> what does it do to my freedom?
>>> if I use this program,
>>> what does it do to the social solidarity of my community?
>>>
>>> So people ignore the most important things
>>> Those questions, are what free software is about,
>>> free software, means software that respects users' freedom
>>> it's a matter of freedom, not practice
>>> when you tranlate it to chinese, you should say "自由", but not "免费"
>>> (laugh & applause)
>>>
>>>
>>> software which is not free software, is user-subjugating software, proprietary
>>>  software,
>>> it keeps user divided and helpless
>>> divided, because everyone is forbidden to share it with everyone else
>>> and helpless, because the users don't have the source code, so they can't chan
>>> ge it,
>>> They can't even verify what it actually doing to them.
>>>
>>> However, just saying "I'm in favor of freedom" is too vain, is not specfic
>>> Even Bush says he's in favor of freedom (Laugh)
>>> and Bush can recognize freedom even after he's crashed.
>>> So I need to say sth more specific, more precise.
>>>
>>> A program is free software, if it gives the 4 essential freedoms.
>>> freedom 0, is to run the program as you wish
>>> freedom 1, is the freedom to study the source code of the program, and change
>>> it, to make it do what you wish.
>>> freedom 2, is the freedom to help your neighbour, that's the freedom to make c
>>> opies, exact copies, and distribute to others, when you wish.
>>> freedome 3, is the freedom to contribute to your community, that's the freedom
>>>  to make copies of your modified versions, and distribute them to others when
>>> you wish. The freedom to distribute copies, includes the freedom to gives them
>>>  away, and the freedom to sell them, so that hasn't to be 免费, often it is, b
>>> ut that's not part of the definition, that's because that's just about price a
>>> nd price isn't the issue here, freedom is the issue here.
>>>
>>> So if the program gives you all 4 of the essential freedoms, then it's a free
>>> software, which means that social system of the distribution and use, is an et
>>> hical system
>>> Where we respect freedom, and the social solidairy of our comunity.
>>>
>>> but if one of these freedom is missing, or insufficient,
>>> then it's proprietary software, non-free software, user-subjugating software,
>>>
>>> because the social system of the distribution and use is unethical,
>>> such software should not exist, developing a free software, is a contribution
>>> to society, big or small, depending on the details, but at least it's going in
>>>  the good direction.
>>> but to develop and distribute proprietary program, it's not a contribution to
>>> society,
>>> it's a power gramp()  , it's attempting to take power of society,
>>> if the program has any attractive features,
>>> those are bait for a trap, and the trap is that you lose your freedom.
>>> so, the aim of free software movement is, software should be free, users shoul
>>> d be free. (Applause)
>>>
>>> But why are these 4 freedoms essential,
>>> why divide free software this way? Each freedom has its own reason.
>>> Freedom 2, the freedom to help your neighbour,
>>> the freedom to make exact copies and distribute them,
>>> is essential on fundamental moral grounds.
>>> so that you can live an upright, ethical life as a good memeber of your commun
>>> ity.
>>> if you use a program that doesn't give you freedom No.2,
>>> you're in danger of falling into a moral dilemma,
>>> at any moment, whenever your friend says, "that program is nice, could i have
>>> a copy?"
>>> at that moment, you will face a choice between 2 evils
>>> 1 evil, is to give your friend a copy, and violate the licence of the program,
>>>
>>> the other evil, is to refuse your friend a copy, and comply with the licence o
>>> f the program.
>>> Once in the dilema, you ought to choose the lesser evil,
>>> which is to give your friend the copy, and violates the licence of the program
>>>
>>> what makes this evil the lesser evil?
>>> well, if you can't avoid doing some kind of wrong to somebody,
>>> better to do wrong to sb who has done wrong and deserves it.
>>> like the developer of pro,
>>> we can assume that your friend is a good friend, a good member of community,
>>>
>>> and normally deserves your co-operation,
>>> of coz, it's a good thing to co-opperate with other people as well.
>>> but this case, the case where the people is a good people of the comunity, is
>>> a sharpest case,
>>> the sharpest contrast, because let's contrast this good member of your comunit
>>> y with the developer of the proprietary program who has deliberately attacked
>>> the social solidatry of your comunity, deliberately try to divide you.
>>> clearly the lesser evil is to do wrong to the developer,
>>> however, being the lesser evil doesn't mean it's good
>>> it's never a good thing to make an agreement then to break it.
>>> now, there're some kind of agreements, that are evil in themselves,
>>> and keeping them is worse than breaking them,
>>> and that's an example, but still, breaking is not good
>>> and if you give your friend a copy, what will we have,
>>> he will have an unathorized copy of a proprietary program,
>>> and that's a bad thing, almost as bad as an authorized copy would be.
>>>
>>> So what you should really do, when you have thought about this ethical issue,
>>>
>>> is to make sure, you're never in this dilemma,
>>> there're 2 ways to do that,
>>> 1 is, don't have any friends,
>>> the distributers of proprietary software implicitly suggest that method
>>> the other method is , don't use the proprietary software,
>>> if you don't have a copy, you don't have to worry about what you will say to y
>>> our friend,
>>> that's my method, if sb offers me a proprietary program on the condition that
>>> i promise not to share with you,
>>> i would tell them no,
>>> i would say, my conscience doesn't allow me, to make an agreement like that,
>>>
>>> a couple of weeks ago, sb give me a computer,
>>> i went to visit the company, and i was given 1 of their computers
>>> and when i try to use it,
>>> the top of screen asking me to accept a licence,
>>> for some non-free programs,
>>> i couldn't agree with that,
>>> so i explain this problem, and i ask if there's anyway i can delete these non-
>>> free programs, and go past that and skip around that licence page,
>>> and so far, it's not clear that i can do so, so i may never actually use that
>>> computer,
>>> coz i'm not going to accept that licence.
>>>
>>> and we must reject the probability against the terms,
>>> that our enermy's use,
>>> for instance, what's it mean, when they say, if you share you're pirate,
>>> what they really tring to say?
>>> they're trying to say, that helping your neighbour,
>>> is the moral eqivalent of attacking a ship, to stealing a cargo,
>>> and nothing could be more false than that,
>>> because attacking a ship is very very bad,
>>> but helping your neighbour is the right thing to do,
>>> so those people are trying to twist up our ideas of right and wrong,
>>> by using dishonest words,
>>> we have watched out their dishonest words and rejects them,
>>> so when sb asks me what do i think of piracy,
>>> i say that attacking ships is very bad,
>>> and if someone asks me what i think of software piracy,
>>> i say as far as i know, pricay these days use guns, but not software.
>>> well that's the reason for freedom 2, the freedom to help your neighbour, the
>>> freedom to make exact copies and distribute them to others when you wish
>>>
>>> Freedom 0, the freedom to run the program as you wish,
>>> is essential for different reason,
>>> so you could control your computing.
>>> There're proprietary programs whose licence restricted even the use of authori
>>> zed copies,
>>> and that's obviously not controlling your computing,
>>> so that's unacceptable,
>>> we have to reject programs whose licences restricted how you can run them, or
>>> for what purpose, or how long, or anything like that.
>>> because you, have to be in control your own computing.
>>> but, freedom 0 is not enough.
>>> because, the developer still controls what you do,
>>> not through the licence, but through the code, the program.
>>> so we also need freedom 1, the freedom to study the source code and to change
>>> it.
>>> so the program does what you wish,
>>> this way, you decide, instead of having the developers decided and imposed dec
>>> isions on you.
>>> if a program doesn't come with freedom 1,
>>> you can even tell what's it doing to you.
>>> and many of these programs do nasty things,
>>> they have features designed to spy on the user, to restrict the user, even to
>>> attack the user,
>>> of coz, spying on the user and restricting the user is not done only by softwa
>>> re and your computer,
>>> and it's also done by servers and gateways,
>>> but that's the different issue,
>>> if you can't even control your computing on your computer,
>>> you're totally under the power of the software developers,
>>> and there malicious features are quite common,
>>> for instance, many proprietary program spy on the user,
>>> 1 you may heard of, that spy on user is called MS windows.
>>> when the users of windows, and i won't say you, because i'm sure you won't use
>>>  nasty program like this.
>>> when the users of windows, clicks on the menu feature, to search his own files
>>>  for a word,
>>> windows sends a message to MS saying what word you're searching for.
>>> that's 1 spy feature.
>>> but there's another, when XP asks for an upgrade,
>>> it sends MS a message of a list of all the programs on the machine,
>>> that's another spy feature,
>>> but are those the only ones?
>>> we don't know, MS never announced these spy features,
>>> people find them by investigation,
>>> so there could be more spy features, that people haven't found yet,
>>> however, windows isn't the only program that spy on the user,
>>> WMP does too, in fact, it does total surveillance. it report everything that t
>>> he user looks at.
>>> that illustrates today, cooperations try to spy on people just as same as the
>>> government do,
>>> most of the world is now under an empire of the magical coperations(???)
>>> and most governor do whatever the magical coperations(??) tells them to do,
>>> and this means they're not democratic, and that's bad thing.
>>> So, WMP spys on users, but, please don't think MS is uniquely evil, that MS
>>>
>>> is the only company so nasty that will do this
>>> because RealPlayer does the same thing,
>>> and we're almost certain RealPlayer did it first,
>>> after all, MS is more known for imitation than invetion.
>>> But malicious feature gets worse than just spying,
>>> there's also the malicious feature, functionality of refusing to function.
>>> when the program says, i don't wanna show the contents of this file,
>>> even though it's in your own computer,
>>> i don't wanna let you copy part of this file
>>> even though it's in your own computer,
>>> i'm not going to print this file for you, coz i don't like you.
>>> and i wasn't put here to serve you, i was put here to control you.
>>> i'm not your servant, although i pretend to be,
>>> i'm actually your prison guard.
>>>
>>> now this practice is also know as DRM(Digital Restrictions Management),
>>> intentionally implemented malicious feature of stopping you from doing things,
>>>  that sb else doesn't want you to do.
>>> and many companies do this, for instance MS, apple, google, adobe, sony, amazo
>>> n does this, and many other.
>>> and everytime they do this,
>>> it attacks your freedom, at 2 different levels at once.
>>> first of all, the purpose of these restrictions, is to attack your freedom,
>>> it's to stop you from doing things which would otherwise be your legal right,
>>>
>>> but the way they do it attacks your freedom at another level,
>>> because they do it by publishing things in secret formats,
>>> and that is to make sure we can't write any free software to access those thin
>>> gs,
>>> so even to access them in a way permitted, you have to use a non-free program,
>>>
>>> and that's also an attack on your freedom,
>>> 2 attacks on your freedom at the same time,
>>> because that's so dangerous,
>>> we urge you never to buy or accept or use any product with DRM,
>>> unless you personally possess the means to break the DRM.
>>>
>>> so far instances, if you have the free software that can read and play a DVD
>>>
>>> then it's OK to buy or rent DVDs or accept as gifts,
>>> but if you don't have that free software,
>>> you should refuse to accept a DVD,
>>> there're a few DVDs which are not encrypted
>>> and they don't post a problem, they don't have the DRM, that's fine, i have a
>>> few of those,
>>> i don't have any encrypted DVDs, i reject them.
>>>
>>
>



-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Sun May 25 21:34:06 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 21:34:06 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?W3pldXV4XUZ3ZDogW3NobHVnXSBSZTogUk1T?=
	=?utf-8?b?5ryU6K6y55qEMH4yMOWIhumSnw==?=
In-Reply-To: <bb2572a80805250624h584616b5vb7f8df3c40ec28b8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bb2572a80805250611o46589e8ahfb8733757546fba@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250611m79477d36m8b57b7eeaf4df1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805250634g7b68fa51vdc19fdf72d60d0c5@mail.gmail.com>

没有前方报道,先从 合众媒体 分享一下...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: easthero <easthero在gmail.com>
Date: 2008/5/25
Subject: [shlug] Re: RMS演讲的0~20分钟
To: shlug在googlegroups.com


发信人: Heroon (飞吧), 信区: FreeDevelop
标  题: 教主复旦行
发信站: 水木社区 (Sun May 25 15:29:15 2008), 站内

摘录自日月光华：


发信人: wahj (春梦无痕), 信区: FreeSoftware
标  题: 本次自由软件峰会见闻
发信站: 日月光华 (2008年05月24日21:45:09 星期六), 站内信件

随便写写，莫怪...
//发出来之前删掉2、3、10三段，涉及几个人的负面评价，还是不拿出来了～

1、怕抢不到位置，我去得很早，大约12:25到的。刚好一到就开门了，同之前在等的人
一起进去，这一批大约七八个吧。

4、13:00多一点的时候，徐继哲来了。因为我事先看过哲思和他的个人网站，所以认识
。那时人还不超过20个吧。他扫了一圈，说，怎么才这么一点人啊，放在复旦真是一个
错误啊。旁边交大过来的就说，要是放交大多好。
后来似乎人还是来得蛮多的，大约有七八成的上座率吧。软件学院有组织人来么？

5、因为堵车，rms他们晚来了大约半个小时。

6、赞教主！进来的时候大家狂鼓掌。然后教主大喇喇地往主席台一坐，公然脱鞋脱袜子
光起脚来。然后拿出一台绿色的OLPC，开始自顾自地忙起来了。虽然在视频里面见过他
的这个习惯，还是被shock到了...

7、正式开始。臧斌宇老师先开场，说了他90年自己做一个编译器，做了4年才完成一个
框架，之后才能做后续工作。要是现在做这东西，上网下一个开源软件，花半年就能读
通，后续工作就很早可以做了，云云。话说臧老师在软院确实做了很多有深度的研究工
作，赞一个。

8、臧老师的致辞感觉准备不是很充分，至少这段讲话应该没有成文过。不过作为致辞也
不能苛求太多。胜在简短。

9、下面是Intel的一位工程师李欣开讲，主讲Intel相关的虚拟化技术。虚拟化是现在的
一个学术和工业双重热点，应该说这是一个很讨巧的题目，可惜的是讲得不是很成功。

11、李欣还是镇定地用完了自己的45分钟。感谢他的讲座。

12、下面是一位日本人Akira Urushibata。我想没人试图记住他的名字和其发音吧。-.-
他的中文名字叫漆畑(tian)晶。作为一个中国文化爱好者，带来了一场很有意思中国古
典和自由软件精神的互相阐释的演讲。hack-折-哲-誓，的关联就很有意思。对于我们自
己的文字和文化，我们其实有点"久闻其香，不知其臭"（臭，作气味解，而不是臭味
）的感觉。现在让一个外国人反过来给我们自己解释一些中国文化方面的东西，确实很
有意思。

13、漆畑晶的讲座非常有趣，而且投影中大量中文，也很好理解。他结束的时候，还有
点意犹未尽的感觉。强烈赞～

14、OK，教主上场了。这儿我不想复述教主讲的内容，说一句实话，教主讲的东西和他
20年前的思想基本没什么区别。几个老段子绝对是经久弥新。教主是哲学家和自由软件运
动的精神领袖，其思想是一以贯之的。不会像比尔同学一样，今年来推Vista，明年改推
Windows7。

15、比如教主讲的学校应该用自由软件。他从台湾过来的，所以出现了这个主题的新闻
稿件。我前面转载了。其实很早他就写过这个题目的文章。唯一的新东西就是反Google
docs了吧

16、教主很流利而标准地说出了"自由"和"免费"两个中文词，全场鼓掌。后面还说
了"曹操"。//orz

17、教主今天花了太多的时间在Linux和GNU/Linux的区别上面，约莫有一个小时。汗～

18、教主今天讲了多久？我的录音时间是一个小时又五十二分钟！说实话，听到后面我
都快崩溃了！——被尿憋的。 -.-b

19、教主的演讲没有用投影。但是教主的演讲水平绝对强悍，比如声音、表情、动作等
等，非常有功底，很会调动大家的情绪。毕竟演讲和宣传是他老人家的第一主业了吧。

20、好吧...最后一段教主终于穿上了教袍，带上了老式唱片，过了一把传教瘾。显然这
是一个很好的噱头，全场前涌，从各种角度拍照...

21、从安排来看本来应该有徐继哲的演讲的，可能是考虑时间太晚，他放弃了长篇的演
讲，简单说了几句，开始了提问环节。当然都是冲着教主来的。

22、提问环节，应该说不算成功...大多数人没做过功课，问的问题大多不得要领。教主
还是很有耐心的。

23、居然有一个提问的是从南京赶来的。//orz

24、开始不想提问，中间突然很想问教主女朋友的事情，打的腹稿至少要三层推进：1、
How did you find your GF？2、Could you introduce your GF to us？（这时教主应
该让教主夫人上台啊）3、Do you have the plan of make a family or have a child
？可惜我这堆开始提问的人很多，后面没机会了。残念...

25、不过还是有一位仁兄问了这个问题，可能不知道如何英文说"征婚启事"，用中文
问的，让翻译转达了：你是不是通过征婚启事找到你的女朋友的？教主的回答很艺术：
我们是通过自由软件认识的。

26、教主的女朋友是意大利人，不算年轻。可怜人家一直很落寞地坐在门口的地方。

27、提问之后就是一拥而上的签名了...思哲那本书真想买，可惜身上只带了20块钱，继
续残念...还好我早就准备了一本书，清华出版社影印的《Free as in Freedom》。虽然
不是教主的亲笔，但是也算教主的传记了。排了一会儿，拿到签名。闪人～

28、教主给每个人的都是：Happy Hacking，再加签名～ -.-b

29、关于GPL、GNU、FSF、FreeSoftware，其实文章和文档很多。教主的演讲不会出新，
不过得慕教主天颜还是不虚此行的～

30、总的来说，很赞很成功～感谢这次讲座的组织者，校外的哲思网，校内的软件学院
。谢谢所有的工作人员～

2008/5/25 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/25 easthero <easthero在gmail.com>:
>> puzhengcai 写道:
>> 昨天赶了几个小时的车程转了两次地铁问了N次路，终于找到了复旦大学新闻学院。现在详细汇报一下哲思自由软件峰会的感受。图片由于没有数码相机，是陌生朋友帮我照了几张，等他传过来我再奉上
>> Razz
>>
> 感谢大家的体验报道!
> 哲思组织峰会,最重要的原因就是给广大自由软件爱好者一个名正言顺的游玩机会! ;)
>
>> 我特地买了自由软件T恤去参加会议，十二点多到的，当时会场人不是太多，等了约半个小时哲思自由软件社区创办人徐继哲来了，也许我是为数不多的穿他们自由软件T恤来的，他看到我就更我打了招呼，我和他握了手，呵呵，终于见到只有在网上见到的自由软件先锋了。我说过会儿能不能和Richard
>> Stallman拍个照，他说当然可以。（很高兴，最后我和他也照了两张，过后奉上）哈哈，今天T恤没白穿啊！
>>
>> 过了一会儿Richard Stallman来了！全场响起热烈的掌声，他和他女友，以及那个日本的Akira
>> Urushibata刚从宾馆赶来，一来到会场以为Richard
>> Stallman会寒暄几句，结果没有，他先是坐下来，打开他的一个包拿出OLPC，很酷（会议结束时大家都上前与他亲密接触，我看看了OLPC用的系统，结果屏幕是像GNU/Linux刚启动时的画面，没有看到菜单之类的图形界面，我想还是算了我反正看不懂，估计他在编程吧）然后Richard
>> Stallman脱下鞋，脱掉袜子，赤着脚在会场那么多人面前一口喝着荼饮料一手用着OLPC，不停的在敲键盘！他什么话也没有，只在弄他的东西！！！很聚精会神！再说说他演讲的时候吧，在中间他突然停了下来，以为是拿什么东西有用，结果他翻开包拿出一包大概是巧克力，哈哈全场的听众都笑了，然后他一边听一边讲他的自由软件！
>> 完了后，他让自由提问！
>>
>> 我争取到了一个提问机会，我想提问什么自由软件之类的是白痴问题，不如来点有气氛的问题。因为我英语很不咱的，又有翻译（听会的有许多一流的专家哈哈），我提问到：
>> Richard Stallman先生你女朋友是不是看到你贴在网上的征求女友的帖子后认识你的？我说就这一个问题，他回答到："Yes,she
>> knows free software."大家都鼓掌欢笑，哈哈，我激动死了，我然后说到：谢谢Richard
>> Stallman先生创造了自由软件，以及所有为自由软件做出贡献的人。由于当时太激动，也是没注意翻译有没有把这话翻译给Richard
>> Stallman，哈哈，不过这不重要了。
>>
>> 大家看完，也许觉得没有图片很遗憾，我过会会尽量补上。
>>
>> 2008/5/25 easthero <easthero在gmail.com>:
>>> 发信人: BetterLife (这个ID不太冷), 信区: Unix
>>> 标  题: Re: 有点同情Intel的那哥们
>>> 发信站: 日月光华 (2008年05月25日19:45:49 星期天)
>>>
>>> 我感到很好笑的场面有：
>>>
>>> 当提意见的人对Intel的那哥们大声疾呼：本次峰会的主题是Free software，不是Open S
>>> ource 的时候，一直埋头写程序的教主突然站立起来象孩子一样鼓掌欢呼。可惜没来得及
>>> 拍摄下来，期待DV。
>>>
>>> 最后教主当面教训Intel的那哥们不该用Windows，搞的演讲者很无奈。
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:11 PM, easthero <easthero在gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 发信人: FreePeter (太阳照常升起), 信区: Unix
>>>> 标  题: RMS演讲的0~20分钟
>>>> 发信站: 日月光华 (2008年05月25日14:42:31 星期天)
>>>>
>>>> 整理 by FreePeter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello & Happy Hacking (Laugh, Applause)
>>>>
>>>> Society usually teaches people to judge software packages by practical concern
>>>> s only
>>>> is this program convenient,
>>>> is this program reliable,
>>>> is it cheap,
>>>> and to ignore the most important questions:
>>>> if I use this program,
>>>> what does it do to my freedom?
>>>> if I use this program,
>>>> what does it do to the social solidarity of my community?
>>>>
>>>> So people ignore the most important things
>>>> Those questions, are what free software is about,
>>>> free software, means software that respects users' freedom
>>>> it's a matter of freedom, not practice
>>>> when you tranlate it to chinese, you should say "自由", but not "免费"
>>>> (laugh & applause)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> software which is not free software, is user-subjugating software, proprietary
>>>>  software,
>>>> it keeps user divided and helpless
>>>> divided, because everyone is forbidden to share it with everyone else
>>>> and helpless, because the users don't have the source code, so they can't chan
>>>> ge it,
>>>> They can't even verify what it actually doing to them.
>>>>
>>>> However, just saying "I'm in favor of freedom" is too vain, is not specfic
>>>> Even Bush says he's in favor of freedom (Laugh)
>>>> and Bush can recognize freedom even after he's crashed.
>>>> So I need to say sth more specific, more precise.
>>>>
>>>> A program is free software, if it gives the 4 essential freedoms.
>>>> freedom 0, is to run the program as you wish
>>>> freedom 1, is the freedom to study the source code of the program, and change
>>>> it, to make it do what you wish.
>>>> freedom 2, is the freedom to help your neighbour, that's the freedom to make c
>>>> opies, exact copies, and distribute to others, when you wish.
>>>> freedome 3, is the freedom to contribute to your community, that's the freedom
>>>>  to make copies of your modified versions, and distribute them to others when
>>>> you wish. The freedom to distribute copies, includes the freedom to gives them
>>>>  away, and the freedom to sell them, so that hasn't to be 免费, often it is, b
>>>> ut that's not part of the definition, that's because that's just about price a
>>>> nd price isn't the issue here, freedom is the issue here.
>>>>
>>>> So if the program gives you all 4 of the essential freedoms, then it's a free
>>>> software, which means that social system of the distribution and use, is an et
>>>> hical system
>>>> Where we respect freedom, and the social solidairy of our comunity.
>>>>
>>>> but if one of these freedom is missing, or insufficient,
>>>> then it's proprietary software, non-free software, user-subjugating software,
>>>>
>>>> because the social system of the distribution and use is unethical,
>>>> such software should not exist, developing a free software, is a contribution
>>>> to society, big or small, depending on the details, but at least it's going in
>>>>  the good direction.
>>>> but to develop and distribute proprietary program, it's not a contribution to
>>>> society,
>>>> it's a power gramp()  , it's attempting to take power of society,
>>>> if the program has any attractive features,
>>>> those are bait for a trap, and the trap is that you lose your freedom.
>>>> so, the aim of free software movement is, software should be free, users shoul
>>>> d be free. (Applause)
>>>>
>>>> But why are these 4 freedoms essential,
>>>> why divide free software this way? Each freedom has its own reason.
>>>> Freedom 2, the freedom to help your neighbour,
>>>> the freedom to make exact copies and distribute them,
>>>> is essential on fundamental moral grounds.
>>>> so that you can live an upright, ethical life as a good memeber of your commun
>>>> ity.
>>>> if you use a program that doesn't give you freedom No.2,
>>>> you're in danger of falling into a moral dilemma,
>>>> at any moment, whenever your friend says, "that program is nice, could i have
>>>> a copy?"
>>>> at that moment, you will face a choice between 2 evils
>>>> 1 evil, is to give your friend a copy, and violate the licence of the program,
>>>>
>>>> the other evil, is to refuse your friend a copy, and comply with the licence o
>>>> f the program.
>>>> Once in the dilema, you ought to choose the lesser evil,
>>>> which is to give your friend the copy, and violates the licence of the program
>>>>
>>>> what makes this evil the lesser evil?
>>>> well, if you can't avoid doing some kind of wrong to somebody,
>>>> better to do wrong to sb who has done wrong and deserves it.
>>>> like the developer of pro,
>>>> we can assume that your friend is a good friend, a good member of community,
>>>>
>>>> and normally deserves your co-operation,
>>>> of coz, it's a good thing to co-opperate with other people as well.
>>>> but this case, the case where the people is a good people of the comunity, is
>>>> a sharpest case,
>>>> the sharpest contrast, because let's contrast this good member of your comunit
>>>> y with the developer of the proprietary program who has deliberately attacked
>>>> the social solidatry of your comunity, deliberately try to divide you.
>>>> clearly the lesser evil is to do wrong to the developer,
>>>> however, being the lesser evil doesn't mean it's good
>>>> it's never a good thing to make an agreement then to break it.
>>>> now, there're some kind of agreements, that are evil in themselves,
>>>> and keeping them is worse than breaking them,
>>>> and that's an example, but still, breaking is not good
>>>> and if you give your friend a copy, what will we have,
>>>> he will have an unathorized copy of a proprietary program,
>>>> and that's a bad thing, almost as bad as an authorized copy would be.
>>>>
>>>> So what you should really do, when you have thought about this ethical issue,
>>>>
>>>> is to make sure, you're never in this dilemma,
>>>> there're 2 ways to do that,
>>>> 1 is, don't have any friends,
>>>> the distributers of proprietary software implicitly suggest that method
>>>> the other method is , don't use the proprietary software,
>>>> if you don't have a copy, you don't have to worry about what you will say to y
>>>> our friend,
>>>> that's my method, if sb offers me a proprietary program on the condition that
>>>> i promise not to share with you,
>>>> i would tell them no,
>>>> i would say, my conscience doesn't allow me, to make an agreement like that,
>>>>
>>>> a couple of weeks ago, sb give me a computer,
>>>> i went to visit the company, and i was given 1 of their computers
>>>> and when i try to use it,
>>>> the top of screen asking me to accept a licence,
>>>> for some non-free programs,
>>>> i couldn't agree with that,
>>>> so i explain this problem, and i ask if there's anyway i can delete these non-
>>>> free programs, and go past that and skip around that licence page,
>>>> and so far, it's not clear that i can do so, so i may never actually use that
>>>> computer,
>>>> coz i'm not going to accept that licence.
>>>>
>>>> and we must reject the probability against the terms,
>>>> that our enermy's use,
>>>> for instance, what's it mean, when they say, if you share you're pirate,
>>>> what they really tring to say?
>>>> they're trying to say, that helping your neighbour,
>>>> is the moral eqivalent of attacking a ship, to stealing a cargo,
>>>> and nothing could be more false than that,
>>>> because attacking a ship is very very bad,
>>>> but helping your neighbour is the right thing to do,
>>>> so those people are trying to twist up our ideas of right and wrong,
>>>> by using dishonest words,
>>>> we have watched out their dishonest words and rejects them,
>>>> so when sb asks me what do i think of piracy,
>>>> i say that attacking ships is very bad,
>>>> and if someone asks me what i think of software piracy,
>>>> i say as far as i know, pricay these days use guns, but not software.
>>>> well that's the reason for freedom 2, the freedom to help your neighbour, the
>>>> freedom to make exact copies and distribute them to others when you wish
>>>>
>>>> Freedom 0, the freedom to run the program as you wish,
>>>> is essential for different reason,
>>>> so you could control your computing.
>>>> There're proprietary programs whose licence restricted even the use of authori
>>>> zed copies,
>>>> and that's obviously not controlling your computing,
>>>> so that's unacceptable,
>>>> we have to reject programs whose licences restricted how you can run them, or
>>>> for what purpose, or how long, or anything like that.
>>>> because you, have to be in control your own computing.
>>>> but, freedom 0 is not enough.
>>>> because, the developer still controls what you do,
>>>> not through the licence, but through the code, the program.
>>>> so we also need freedom 1, the freedom to study the source code and to change
>>>> it.
>>>> so the program does what you wish,
>>>> this way, you decide, instead of having the developers decided and imposed dec
>>>> isions on you.
>>>> if a program doesn't come with freedom 1,
>>>> you can even tell what's it doing to you.
>>>> and many of these programs do nasty things,
>>>> they have features designed to spy on the user, to restrict the user, even to
>>>> attack the user,
>>>> of coz, spying on the user and restricting the user is not done only by softwa
>>>> re and your computer,
>>>> and it's also done by servers and gateways,
>>>> but that's the different issue,
>>>> if you can't even control your computing on your computer,
>>>> you're totally under the power of the software developers,
>>>> and there malicious features are quite common,
>>>> for instance, many proprietary program spy on the user,
>>>> 1 you may heard of, that spy on user is called MS windows.
>>>> when the users of windows, and i won't say you, because i'm sure you won't use
>>>>  nasty program like this.
>>>> when the users of windows, clicks on the menu feature, to search his own files
>>>>  for a word,
>>>> windows sends a message to MS saying what word you're searching for.
>>>> that's 1 spy feature.
>>>> but there's another, when XP asks for an upgrade,
>>>> it sends MS a message of a list of all the programs on the machine,
>>>> that's another spy feature,
>>>> but are those the only ones?
>>>> we don't know, MS never announced these spy features,
>>>> people find them by investigation,
>>>> so there could be more spy features, that people haven't found yet,
>>>> however, windows isn't the only program that spy on the user,
>>>> WMP does too, in fact, it does total surveillance. it report everything that t
>>>> he user looks at.
>>>> that illustrates today, cooperations try to spy on people just as same as the
>>>> government do,
>>>> most of the world is now under an empire of the magical coperations(???)
>>>> and most governor do whatever the magical coperations(??) tells them to do,
>>>> and this means they're not democratic, and that's bad thing.
>>>> So, WMP spys on users, but, please don't think MS is uniquely evil, that MS
>>>>
>>>> is the only company so nasty that will do this
>>>> because RealPlayer does the same thing,
>>>> and we're almost certain RealPlayer did it first,
>>>> after all, MS is more known for imitation than invetion.
>>>> But malicious feature gets worse than just spying,
>>>> there's also the malicious feature, functionality of refusing to function.
>>>> when the program says, i don't wanna show the contents of this file,
>>>> even though it's in your own computer,
>>>> i don't wanna let you copy part of this file
>>>> even though it's in your own computer,
>>>> i'm not going to print this file for you, coz i don't like you.
>>>> and i wasn't put here to serve you, i was put here to control you.
>>>> i'm not your servant, although i pretend to be,
>>>> i'm actually your prison guard.
>>>>
>>>> now this practice is also know as DRM(Digital Restrictions Management),
>>>> intentionally implemented malicious feature of stopping you from doing things,
>>>>  that sb else doesn't want you to do.
>>>> and many companies do this, for instance MS, apple, google, adobe, sony, amazo
>>>> n does this, and many other.
>>>> and everytime they do this,
>>>> it attacks your freedom, at 2 different levels at once.
>>>> first of all, the purpose of these restrictions, is to attack your freedom,
>>>> it's to stop you from doing things which would otherwise be your legal right,
>>>>
>>>> but the way they do it attacks your freedom at another level,
>>>> because they do it by publishing things in secret formats,
>>>> and that is to make sure we can't write any free software to access those thin
>>>> gs,
>>>> so even to access them in a way permitted, you have to use a non-free program,
>>>>
>>>> and that's also an attack on your freedom,
>>>> 2 attacks on your freedom at the same time,
>>>> because that's so dangerous,
>>>> we urge you never to buy or accept or use any product with DRM,
>>>> unless you personally possess the means to break the DRM.
>>>>
>>>> so far instances, if you have the free software that can read and play a DVD
>>>>
>>>> then it's OK to buy or rent DVDs or accept as gifts,
>>>> but if you don't have that free software,
>>>> you should refuse to accept a DVD,
>>>> there're a few DVDs which are not encrypted
>>>> and they don't post a problem, they don't have the DRM, that's fine, i have a
>>>> few of those,
>>>> i don't have any encrypted DVDs, i reject them.
>>>>




-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From bill在zeuux.org  Sun May 25 23:22:41 2008
From: bill在zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 23:22:41 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
 =?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
In-Reply-To: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com>
References: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com>
Message-ID: <48398441.6050709@zeuux.org>


> 报歉，此事OT，但是我觉得重要，还是发上来了。
>   
此事并不OT。
>
> 我自己现在使用广发银行了，因为我和我女朋友申请浦发信用卡都不成功（似因为
> 我们工作单位是厦门的，浦发业务不覆盖；但是他们是总不说申请失败的原因
> 的），而原本打算申请浦发信用卡后，申请其借记卡的。现在既然信用卡申请不成
> 功，手上正好有一张linux可用的网银（广发），就懒得再去申请浦发信用卡了。
>   
根据现在的使用情况，哪家银行对自由软件支持的最好？
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From cheungtifan在gmail.com  Mon May 26 00:16:55 2008
From: cheungtifan在gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 16:46:55 +0030
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3pldXV4XUZ3ZDogW3NobHVnXSBSZTogUk1T?=
	=?utf-8?b?5ryU6K6y55qEMH4yMOWIhumSnw==?=
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805250634g7b68fa51vdc19fdf72d60d0c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bb2572a80805250611o46589e8ahfb8733757546fba@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250611m79477d36m8b57b7eeaf4df1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250624h584616b5vb7f8df3c40ec28b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805250634g7b68fa51vdc19fdf72d60d0c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805250916p6862a9a4h1b2504b3f0584007@mail.gmail.com>

happy hacking guys
unluckly i have courses those days or i'll certainly be there today.
i'm always expecting to see rms and have his signature. anything more?
and r the photos ready? eagerly 2 see them.
Alex

On 5/25/08, Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com> wrote:
> 没有前方报道,先从 合众媒体 分享一下...
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: easthero <easthero at gmail.com>
> Date: 2008/5/25
> Subject: [shlug] Re: RMS演讲的0~20分钟
> To: shlug at googlegroups.com
>
>
> 发信人: Heroon (飞吧), 信区: FreeDevelop
> 标  题: 教主复旦行
> 发信站: 水木社区 (Sun May 25 15:29:15 2008), 站内
>
> 摘录自日月光华：
>
>
> 发信人: wahj (春梦无痕), 信区: FreeSoftware
> 标  题: 本次自由软件峰会见闻
> 发信站: 日月光华 (2008年05月24日21:45:09 星期六), 站内信件
>
> 随便写写，莫怪...
> //发出来之前删掉2、3、10三段，涉及几个人的负面评价，还是不拿出来了～
>
> 1、怕抢不到位置，我去得很早，大约12:25到的。刚好一到就开门了，同之前在等的人
> 一起进去，这一批大约七八个吧。
>
> 4、13:00多一点的时候，徐继哲来了。因为我事先看过哲思和他的个人网站，所以认识
> 。那时人还不超过20个吧。他扫了一圈，说，怎么才这么一点人啊，放在复旦真是一个
> 错误啊。旁边交大过来的就说，要是放交大多好。
> 后来似乎人还是来得蛮多的，大约有七八成的上座率吧。软件学院有组织人来么？
>
> 5、因为堵车，rms他们晚来了大约半个小时。
>
> 6、赞教主！进来的时候大家狂鼓掌。然后教主大喇喇地往主席台一坐，公然脱鞋脱袜子
> 光起脚来。然后拿出一台绿色的OLPC，开始自顾自地忙起来了。虽然在视频里面见过他
> 的这个习惯，还是被shock到了...
>
> 7、正式开始。臧斌宇老师先开场，说了他90年自己做一个编译器，做了4年才完成一个
> 框架，之后才能做后续工作。要是现在做这东西，上网下一个开源软件，花半年就能读
> 通，后续工作就很早可以做了，云云。话说臧老师在软院确实做了很多有深度的研究工
> 作，赞一个。
>
> 8、臧老师的致辞感觉准备不是很充分，至少这段讲话应该没有成文过。不过作为致辞也
> 不能苛求太多。胜在简短。
>
> 9、下面是Intel的一位工程师李欣开讲，主讲Intel相关的虚拟化技术。虚拟化是现在的
> 一个学术和工业双重热点，应该说这是一个很讨巧的题目，可惜的是讲得不是很成功。
>
> 11、李欣还是镇定地用完了自己的45分钟。感谢他的讲座。
>
> 12、下面是一位日本人Akira Urushibata。我想没人试图记住他的名字和其发音吧。-.-
> 他的中文名字叫漆畑(tian)晶。作为一个中国文化爱好者，带来了一场很有意思中国古
> 典和自由软件精神的互相阐释的演讲。hack-折-哲-誓，的关联就很有意思。对于我们自
> 己的文字和文化，我们其实有点"久闻其香，不知其臭"（臭，作气味解，而不是臭味
> ）的感觉。现在让一个外国人反过来给我们自己解释一些中国文化方面的东西，确实很
> 有意思。
>
> 13、漆畑晶的讲座非常有趣，而且投影中大量中文，也很好理解。他结束的时候，还有
> 点意犹未尽的感觉。强烈赞～
>
> 14、OK，教主上场了。这儿我不想复述教主讲的内容，说一句实话，教主讲的东西和他
> 20年前的思想基本没什么区别。几个老段子绝对是经久弥新。教主是哲学家和自由软件运
> 动的精神领袖，其思想是一以贯之的。不会像比尔同学一样，今年来推Vista，明年改推
> Windows7。
>
> 15、比如教主讲的学校应该用自由软件。他从台湾过来的，所以出现了这个主题的新闻
> 稿件。我前面转载了。其实很早他就写过这个题目的文章。唯一的新东西就是反Google
> docs了吧
>
> 16、教主很流利而标准地说出了"自由"和"免费"两个中文词，全场鼓掌。后面还说
> 了"曹操"。//orz
>
> 17、教主今天花了太多的时间在Linux和GNU/Linux的区别上面，约莫有一个小时。汗～
>
> 18、教主今天讲了多久？我的录音时间是一个小时又五十二分钟！说实话，听到后面我
> 都快崩溃了！——被尿憋的。 -.-b
>
> 19、教主的演讲没有用投影。但是教主的演讲水平绝对强悍，比如声音、表情、动作等
> 等，非常有功底，很会调动大家的情绪。毕竟演讲和宣传是他老人家的第一主业了吧。
>
> 20、好吧...最后一段教主终于穿上了教袍，带上了老式唱片，过了一把传教瘾。显然这
> 是一个很好的噱头，全场前涌，从各种角度拍照...
>
> 21、从安排来看本来应该有徐继哲的演讲的，可能是考虑时间太晚，他放弃了长篇的演
> 讲，简单说了几句，开始了提问环节。当然都是冲着教主来的。
>
> 22、提问环节，应该说不算成功...大多数人没做过功课，问的问题大多不得要领。教主
> 还是很有耐心的。
>
> 23、居然有一个提问的是从南京赶来的。//orz
>
> 24、开始不想提问，中间突然很想问教主女朋友的事情，打的腹稿至少要三层推进：1、
> How did you find your GF？2、Could you introduce your GF to us？（这时教主应
> 该让教主夫人上台啊）3、Do you have the plan of make a family or have a child
> ？可惜我这堆开始提问的人很多，后面没机会了。残念...
>
> 25、不过还是有一位仁兄问了这个问题，可能不知道如何英文说"征婚启事"，用中文
> 问的，让翻译转达了：你是不是通过征婚启事找到你的女朋友的？教主的回答很艺术：
> 我们是通过自由软件认识的。
>
> 26、教主的女朋友是意大利人，不算年轻。可怜人家一直很落寞地坐在门口的地方。
>
> 27、提问之后就是一拥而上的签名了...思哲那本书真想买，可惜身上只带了20块钱，继
> 续残念...还好我早就准备了一本书，清华出版社影印的《Free as in Freedom》。虽然
> 不是教主的亲笔，但是也算教主的传记了。排了一会儿，拿到签名。闪人～
>
> 28、教主给每个人的都是：Happy Hacking，再加签名～ -.-b
>
> 29、关于GPL、GNU、FSF、FreeSoftware，其实文章和文档很多。教主的演讲不会出新，
> 不过得慕教主天颜还是不虚此行的～
>
> 30、总的来说，很赞很成功～感谢这次讲座的组织者，校外的哲思网，校内的软件学院
> 。谢谢所有的工作人员～
>
> 2008/5/25 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
>> 2008/5/25 easthero <easthero at gmail.com>:
>>> puzhengcai 写道:
>>> 昨天赶了几个小时的车程转了两次地铁问了N次路，终于找到了复旦大学新闻学院。现在详细汇报一下哲思自由软件峰会的感受。图片由于没有数码相机，是陌生朋友帮我照了几张，等他传过来我再奉上
>>> Razz
>>>
>> 感谢大家的体验报道!
>> 哲思组织峰会,最重要的原因就是给广大自由软件爱好者一个名正言顺的游玩机会! ;)
>>
>>> 我特地买了自由软件T恤去参加会议，十二点多到的，当时会场人不是太多，等了约半个小时哲思自由软件社区创办人徐继哲来了，也许我是为数不多的穿他们自由软件T恤来的，他看到我就更我打了招呼，我和他握了手，呵呵，终于见到只有在网上见到的自由软件先锋了。我说过会儿能不能和Richard
>>> Stallman拍个照，他说当然可以。（很高兴，最后我和他也照了两张，过后奉上）哈哈，今天T恤没白穿啊！
>>>
>>> 过了一会儿Richard Stallman来了！全场响起热烈的掌声，他和他女友，以及那个日本的Akira
>>> Urushibata刚从宾馆赶来，一来到会场以为Richard
>>> Stallman会寒暄几句，结果没有，他先是坐下来，打开他的一个包拿出OLPC，很酷（会议结束时大家都上前与他亲密接触，我看看了OLPC用的系统，结果屏幕是像GNU/Linux刚启动时的画面，没有看到菜单之类的图形界面，我想还是算了我反正看不懂，估计他在编程吧）然后Richard
>>> Stallman脱下鞋，脱掉袜子，赤着脚在会场那么多人面前一口喝着荼饮料一手用着OLPC，不停的在敲键盘！他什么话也没有，只在弄他的东西！！！很聚精会神！再说说他演讲的时候吧，在中间他突然停了下来，以为是拿什么东西有用，结果他翻开包拿出一包大概是巧克力，哈哈全场的听众都笑了，然后他一边听一边讲他的自由软件！
>>> 完了后，他让自由提问！
>>>
>>> 我争取到了一个提问机会，我想提问什么自由软件之类的是白痴问题，不如来点有气氛的问题。因为我英语很不咱的，又有翻译（听会的有许多一流的专家哈哈），我提问到：
>>> Richard Stallman先生你女朋友是不是看到你贴在网上的征求女友的帖子后认识你的？我说就这一个问题，他回答到："Yes,she
>>> knows free software."大家都鼓掌欢笑，哈哈，我激动死了，我然后说到：谢谢Richard
>>> Stallman先生创造了自由软件，以及所有为自由软件做出贡献的人。由于当时太激动，也是没注意翻译有没有把这话翻译给Richard
>>> Stallman，哈哈，不过这不重要了。
>>>
>>> 大家看完，也许觉得没有图片很遗憾，我过会会尽量补上。
>>>
>>> 2008/5/25 easthero <easthero at gmail.com>:
>>>> 发信人: BetterLife (这个ID不太冷), 信区: Unix
>>>> 标  题: Re: 有点同情Intel的那哥们
>>>> 发信站: 日月光华 (2008年05月25日19:45:49 星期天)
>>>>
>>>> 我感到很好笑的场面有：
>>>>
>>>> 当提意见的人对Intel的那哥们大声疾呼：本次峰会的主题是Free software，不是Open S
>>>> ource 的时候，一直埋头写程序的教主突然站立起来象孩子一样鼓掌欢呼。可惜没来得及
>>>> 拍摄下来，期待DV。
>>>>
>>>> 最后教主当面教训Intel的那哥们不该用Windows，搞的演讲者很无奈。
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:11 PM, easthero <easthero at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 发信人: FreePeter (太阳照常升起), 信区: Unix
>>>>> 标  题: RMS演讲的0~20分钟
>>>>> 发信站: 日月光华 (2008年05月25日14:42:31 星期天)
>>>>>
>>>>> 整理 by FreePeter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello & Happy Hacking (Laugh, Applause)
>>>>>
>>>>> Society usually teaches people to judge software packages by practical
>>>>> concern
>>>>> s only
>>>>> is this program convenient,
>>>>> is this program reliable,
>>>>> is it cheap,
>>>>> and to ignore the most important questions:
>>>>> if I use this program,
>>>>> what does it do to my freedom?
>>>>> if I use this program,
>>>>> what does it do to the social solidarity of my community?
>>>>>
>>>>> So people ignore the most important things
>>>>> Those questions, are what free software is about,
>>>>> free software, means software that respects users' freedom
>>>>> it's a matter of freedom, not practice
>>>>> when you tranlate it to chinese, you should say "自由", but not "免费"
>>>>> (laugh & applause)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> software which is not free software, is user-subjugating software,
>>>>> proprietary
>>>>>  software,
>>>>> it keeps user divided and helpless
>>>>> divided, because everyone is forbidden to share it with everyone else
>>>>> and helpless, because the users don't have the source code, so they
>>>>> can't chan
>>>>> ge it,
>>>>> They can't even verify what it actually doing to them.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, just saying "I'm in favor of freedom" is too vain, is not
>>>>> specfic
>>>>> Even Bush says he's in favor of freedom (Laugh)
>>>>> and Bush can recognize freedom even after he's crashed.
>>>>> So I need to say sth more specific, more precise.
>>>>>
>>>>> A program is free software, if it gives the 4 essential freedoms.
>>>>> freedom 0, is to run the program as you wish
>>>>> freedom 1, is the freedom to study the source code of the program, and
>>>>> change
>>>>> it, to make it do what you wish.
>>>>> freedom 2, is the freedom to help your neighbour, that's the freedom to
>>>>> make c
>>>>> opies, exact copies, and distribute to others, when you wish.
>>>>> freedome 3, is the freedom to contribute to your community, that's the
>>>>> freedom
>>>>>  to make copies of your modified versions, and distribute them to
>>>>> others when
>>>>> you wish. The freedom to distribute copies, includes the freedom to
>>>>> gives them
>>>>>  away, and the freedom to sell them, so that hasn't to be 免费, often it
>>>>> is, b
>>>>> ut that's not part of the definition, that's because that's just about
>>>>> price a
>>>>> nd price isn't the issue here, freedom is the issue here.
>>>>>
>>>>> So if the program gives you all 4 of the essential freedoms, then it's
>>>>> a free
>>>>> software, which means that social system of the distribution and use,
>>>>> is an et
>>>>> hical system
>>>>> Where we respect freedom, and the social solidairy of our comunity.
>>>>>
>>>>> but if one of these freedom is missing, or insufficient,
>>>>> then it's proprietary software, non-free software, user-subjugating
>>>>> software,
>>>>>
>>>>> because the social system of the distribution and use is unethical,
>>>>> such software should not exist, developing a free software, is a
>>>>> contribution
>>>>> to society, big or small, depending on the details, but at least it's
>>>>> going in
>>>>>  the good direction.
>>>>> but to develop and distribute proprietary program, it's not a
>>>>> contribution to
>>>>> society,
>>>>> it's a power gramp()  , it's attempting to take power of society,
>>>>> if the program has any attractive features,
>>>>> those are bait for a trap, and the trap is that you lose your freedom.
>>>>> so, the aim of free software movement is, software should be free,
>>>>> users shoul
>>>>> d be free. (Applause)
>>>>>
>>>>> But why are these 4 freedoms essential,
>>>>> why divide free software this way? Each freedom has its own reason.
>>>>> Freedom 2, the freedom to help your neighbour,
>>>>> the freedom to make exact copies and distribute them,
>>>>> is essential on fundamental moral grounds.
>>>>> so that you can live an upright, ethical life as a good memeber of your
>>>>> commun
>>>>> ity.
>>>>> if you use a program that doesn't give you freedom No.2,
>>>>> you're in danger of falling into a moral dilemma,
>>>>> at any moment, whenever your friend says, "that program is nice, could
>>>>> i have
>>>>> a copy?"
>>>>> at that moment, you will face a choice between 2 evils
>>>>> 1 evil, is to give your friend a copy, and violate the licence of the
>>>>> program,
>>>>>
>>>>> the other evil, is to refuse your friend a copy, and comply with the
>>>>> licence o
>>>>> f the program.
>>>>> Once in the dilema, you ought to choose the lesser evil,
>>>>> which is to give your friend the copy, and violates the licence of the
>>>>> program
>>>>>
>>>>> what makes this evil the lesser evil?
>>>>> well, if you can't avoid doing some kind of wrong to somebody,
>>>>> better to do wrong to sb who has done wrong and deserves it.
>>>>> like the developer of pro,
>>>>> we can assume that your friend is a good friend, a good member of
>>>>> community,
>>>>>
>>>>> and normally deserves your co-operation,
>>>>> of coz, it's a good thing to co-opperate with other people as well.
>>>>> but this case, the case where the people is a good people of the
>>>>> comunity, is
>>>>> a sharpest case,
>>>>> the sharpest contrast, because let's contrast this good member of your
>>>>> comunit
>>>>> y with the developer of the proprietary program who has deliberately
>>>>> attacked
>>>>> the social solidatry of your comunity, deliberately try to divide you.
>>>>> clearly the lesser evil is to do wrong to the developer,
>>>>> however, being the lesser evil doesn't mean it's good
>>>>> it's never a good thing to make an agreement then to break it.
>>>>> now, there're some kind of agreements, that are evil in themselves,
>>>>> and keeping them is worse than breaking them,
>>>>> and that's an example, but still, breaking is not good
>>>>> and if you give your friend a copy, what will we have,
>>>>> he will have an unathorized copy of a proprietary program,
>>>>> and that's a bad thing, almost as bad as an authorized copy would be.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what you should really do, when you have thought about this ethical
>>>>> issue,
>>>>>
>>>>> is to make sure, you're never in this dilemma,
>>>>> there're 2 ways to do that,
>>>>> 1 is, don't have any friends,
>>>>> the distributers of proprietary software implicitly suggest that method
>>>>> the other method is , don't use the proprietary software,
>>>>> if you don't have a copy, you don't have to worry about what you will
>>>>> say to y
>>>>> our friend,
>>>>> that's my method, if sb offers me a proprietary program on the
>>>>> condition that
>>>>> i promise not to share with you,
>>>>> i would tell them no,
>>>>> i would say, my conscience doesn't allow me, to make an agreement like
>>>>> that,
>>>>>
>>>>> a couple of weeks ago, sb give me a computer,
>>>>> i went to visit the company, and i was given 1 of their computers
>>>>> and when i try to use it,
>>>>> the top of screen asking me to accept a licence,
>>>>> for some non-free programs,
>>>>> i couldn't agree with that,
>>>>> so i explain this problem, and i ask if there's anyway i can delete
>>>>> these non-
>>>>> free programs, and go past that and skip around that licence page,
>>>>> and so far, it's not clear that i can do so, so i may never actually
>>>>> use that
>>>>> computer,
>>>>> coz i'm not going to accept that licence.
>>>>>
>>>>> and we must reject the probability against the terms,
>>>>> that our enermy's use,
>>>>> for instance, what's it mean, when they say, if you share you're
>>>>> pirate,
>>>>> what they really tring to say?
>>>>> they're trying to say, that helping your neighbour,
>>>>> is the moral eqivalent of attacking a ship, to stealing a cargo,
>>>>> and nothing could be more false than that,
>>>>> because attacking a ship is very very bad,
>>>>> but helping your neighbour is the right thing to do,
>>>>> so those people are trying to twist up our ideas of right and wrong,
>>>>> by using dishonest words,
>>>>> we have watched out their dishonest words and rejects them,
>>>>> so when sb asks me what do i think of piracy,
>>>>> i say that attacking ships is very bad,
>>>>> and if someone asks me what i think of software piracy,
>>>>> i say as far as i know, pricay these days use guns, but not software.
>>>>> well that's the reason for freedom 2, the freedom to help your
>>>>> neighbour, the
>>>>> freedom to make exact copies and distribute them to others when you
>>>>> wish
>>>>>
>>>>> Freedom 0, the freedom to run the program as you wish,
>>>>> is essential for different reason,
>>>>> so you could control your computing.
>>>>> There're proprietary programs whose licence restricted even the use of
>>>>> authori
>>>>> zed copies,
>>>>> and that's obviously not controlling your computing,
>>>>> so that's unacceptable,
>>>>> we have to reject programs whose licences restricted how you can run
>>>>> them, or
>>>>> for what purpose, or how long, or anything like that.
>>>>> because you, have to be in control your own computing.
>>>>> but, freedom 0 is not enough.
>>>>> because, the developer still controls what you do,
>>>>> not through the licence, but through the code, the program.
>>>>> so we also need freedom 1, the freedom to study the source code and to
>>>>> change
>>>>> it.
>>>>> so the program does what you wish,
>>>>> this way, you decide, instead of having the developers decided and
>>>>> imposed dec
>>>>> isions on you.
>>>>> if a program doesn't come with freedom 1,
>>>>> you can even tell what's it doing to you.
>>>>> and many of these programs do nasty things,
>>>>> they have features designed to spy on the user, to restrict the user,
>>>>> even to
>>>>> attack the user,
>>>>> of coz, spying on the user and restricting the user is not done only by
>>>>> softwa
>>>>> re and your computer,
>>>>> and it's also done by servers and gateways,
>>>>> but that's the different issue,
>>>>> if you can't even control your computing on your computer,
>>>>> you're totally under the power of the software developers,
>>>>> and there malicious features are quite common,
>>>>> for instance, many proprietary program spy on the user,
>>>>> 1 you may heard of, that spy on user is called MS windows.
>>>>> when the users of windows, and i won't say you, because i'm sure you
>>>>> won't use
>>>>>  nasty program like this.
>>>>> when the users of windows, clicks on the menu feature, to search his
>>>>> own files
>>>>>  for a word,
>>>>> windows sends a message to MS saying what word you're searching for.
>>>>> that's 1 spy feature.
>>>>> but there's another, when XP asks for an upgrade,
>>>>> it sends MS a message of a list of all the programs on the machine,
>>>>> that's another spy feature,
>>>>> but are those the only ones?
>>>>> we don't know, MS never announced these spy features,
>>>>> people find them by investigation,
>>>>> so there could be more spy features, that people haven't found yet,
>>>>> however, windows isn't the only program that spy on the user,
>>>>> WMP does too, in fact, it does total surveillance. it report everything
>>>>> that t
>>>>> he user looks at.
>>>>> that illustrates today, cooperations try to spy on people just as same
>>>>> as the
>>>>> government do,
>>>>> most of the world is now under an empire of the magical
>>>>> coperations(???)
>>>>> and most governor do whatever the magical coperations(??) tells them to
>>>>> do,
>>>>> and this means they're not democratic, and that's bad thing.
>>>>> So, WMP spys on users, but, please don't think MS is uniquely evil,
>>>>> that MS
>>>>>
>>>>> is the only company so nasty that will do this
>>>>> because RealPlayer does the same thing,
>>>>> and we're almost certain RealPlayer did it first,
>>>>> after all, MS is more known for imitation than invetion.
>>>>> But malicious feature gets worse than just spying,
>>>>> there's also the malicious feature, functionality of refusing to
>>>>> function.
>>>>> when the program says, i don't wanna show the contents of this file,
>>>>> even though it's in your own computer,
>>>>> i don't wanna let you copy part of this file
>>>>> even though it's in your own computer,
>>>>> i'm not going to print this file for you, coz i don't like you.
>>>>> and i wasn't put here to serve you, i was put here to control you.
>>>>> i'm not your servant, although i pretend to be,
>>>>> i'm actually your prison guard.
>>>>>
>>>>> now this practice is also know as DRM(Digital Restrictions Management),
>>>>> intentionally implemented malicious feature of stopping you from doing
>>>>> things,
>>>>>  that sb else doesn't want you to do.
>>>>> and many companies do this, for instance MS, apple, google, adobe,
>>>>> sony, amazo
>>>>> n does this, and many other.
>>>>> and everytime they do this,
>>>>> it attacks your freedom, at 2 different levels at once.
>>>>> first of all, the purpose of these restrictions, is to attack your
>>>>> freedom,
>>>>> it's to stop you from doing things which would otherwise be your legal
>>>>> right,
>>>>>
>>>>> but the way they do it attacks your freedom at another level,
>>>>> because they do it by publishing things in secret formats,
>>>>> and that is to make sure we can't write any free software to access
>>>>> those thin
>>>>> gs,
>>>>> so even to access them in a way permitted, you have to use a non-free
>>>>> program,
>>>>>
>>>>> and that's also an attack on your freedom,
>>>>> 2 attacks on your freedom at the same time,
>>>>> because that's so dangerous,
>>>>> we urge you never to buy or accept or use any product with DRM,
>>>>> unless you personally possess the means to break the DRM.
>>>>>
>>>>> so far instances, if you have the free software that can read and play
>>>>> a DVD
>>>>>
>>>>> then it's OK to buy or rent DVDs or accept as gifts,
>>>>> but if you don't have that free software,
>>>>> you should refuse to accept a DVD,
>>>>> there're a few DVDs which are not encrypted
>>>>> and they don't post a problem, they don't have the DRM, that's fine, i
>>>>> have a
>>>>> few of those,
>>>>> i don't have any encrypted DVDs, i reject them.
>>>>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
> '''http://zoomquiet.org
> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From cheungtifan在gmail.com  Mon May 26 00:19:08 2008
From: cheungtifan在gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 16:49:08 +0030
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
	=?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
In-Reply-To: <48398441.6050709@zeuux.org>
References: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com> <48398441.6050709@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805250919u666547bcyd2ee6968bc4035ef@mail.gmail.com>

很遗憾，都不太好。四大国有银行的卡我都有，都没有办法用。
btw, ot什么意思?
Alex Zhang

On 5/25/08, Bill Xu <bill at zeuux.org> wrote:
>
>> 报歉，此事OT，但是我觉得重要，还是发上来了。
>>
> 此事并不OT。
>>
>> 我自己现在使用广发银行了，因为我和我女朋友申请浦发信用卡都不成功（似因为
>> 我们工作单位是厦门的，浦发业务不覆盖；但是他们是总不说申请失败的原因
>> 的），而原本打算申请浦发信用卡后，申请其借记卡的。现在既然信用卡申请不成
>> 功，手上正好有一张linux可用的网银（广发），就懒得再去申请浦发信用卡了。
>>
> 根据现在的使用情况，哪家银行对自由软件支持的最好？
>


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From zhangweiwu在realss.com  Mon May 26 10:00:49 2008
From: zhangweiwu在realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 10:00:49 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
 =?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
In-Reply-To: <48398441.6050709@zeuux.org>
References: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com> <48398441.6050709@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <483A19D1.5080604@realss.com>

Bill Xu wrote:
>
>> 报歉，此事OT，但是我觉得重要，还是发上来了。
>>   
> 此事并不OT。
>>
>> 我自己现在使用广发银行了，因为我和我女朋友申请浦发信用卡都不成功（似因为
>> 我们工作单位是厦门的，浦发业务不覆盖；但是他们是总不说申请失败的原因
>> 的），而原本打算申请浦发信用卡后，申请其借记卡的。现在既然信用卡申请不成
>> 功，手上正好有一张linux可用的网银（广发），就懒得再去申请浦发信用卡了。
>>   
> 根据现在的使用情况，哪家银行对自由软件支持的最好？
>
浦发。

-- 
Real Softservice

Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 159 1111 7382
http://www.realss.com


From zhangweiwu在realss.com  Mon May 26 10:04:20 2008
From: zhangweiwu在realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 10:04:20 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
 =?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
In-Reply-To: <eac7fba60805250518i3e8fa4afv5003ee21aa86ef83@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com>
	<eac7fba60805250518i3e8fa4afv5003ee21aa86ef83@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <483A1AA4.50705@realss.com>

Jiahua Huang wrote:
> 2008/5/25 Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com>:
>   
>>> 快捷提示： 对于非Windows用户，就非Windows平台支持程度看，如果您的所在
>>> 地有浦东发展银行，优选浦东发展银行。如无，看本地是否有广东发展银行，次
>>> 选广东发展银行 （开通网上支付需使用IE、不被易趣支持，快钱对其支持似有
>>>       
>
> 如果是说:
>   
>> 广东发展银行网上银行必须IE方能登录， 但是原因是因为其Javascript错误，并非因为使用了必须依赖IE的ActiveX。 也就是说此行完全可以改正完善它。
>>     
> 那么 firefox 应当可以用油猴子插件搞定，
> 或用 khtml、webkit、opera 碰下运气。
>   
有道理，忘了使用

khtml、webkit、opera 
试。因为只有IE不是跨平台的。后面几种支持它的话，也应该算数。


From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Mon May 26 11:05:23 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 11:05:23 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W0NQeVVHOjUyNDc0XSBSZTogW3pldXV4XUZ3?=
	=?utf-8?b?ZDogW3NobHVnXSBSZTogUk1T5ryU6K6y55qEMH4yMOWIhumSnw==?=
In-Reply-To: <51a711450805251814k48a0ab82x48de46abb50d2e80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bb2572a80805250611o46589e8ahfb8733757546fba@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250611m79477d36m8b57b7eeaf4df1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250624h584616b5vb7f8df3c40ec28b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805250634g7b68fa51vdc19fdf72d60d0c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<51a711450805251814k48a0ab82x48de46abb50d2e80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805252005r1be60625p4ee0818ff0408224@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/26 beck917 <beck917在gmail.com>:
> 那天也去了,顶上去
>
> 最后那天女生问stallman,电视之类的我们不需要知道制作过程,软件需要吗?
>
> stallman最后和她交流了老长时间,不知道怎么回答的...最后实在太乱了,没听到
>
这事儿很严重!

自由提问时的秩序组织能力,是反应组委会能力的直接指标哪!



-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From jinq0123在163.com  Mon May 26 11:38:08 2008
From: jinq0123在163.com (jinq0123在163.com)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 11:38:08 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W0NQeVVHOjUyNDc0XSBSZTogW3pldXV4XUZ3?=
 =?utf-8?b?ZDogW3NobHVnXSBSZTogUk1T5ryU6K6y55qEMH4yMOWIhumSnw==?=
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805252005r1be60625p4ee0818ff0408224@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bb2572a80805250611o46589e8ahfb8733757546fba@mail.gmail.com>	<bb2572a80805250611m79477d36m8b57b7eeaf4df1b@mail.gmail.com>	<bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>	<9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>	<bb2572a80805250624h584616b5vb7f8df3c40ec28b8@mail.gmail.com>	<9dad9f0a0805250634g7b68fa51vdc19fdf72d60d0c5@mail.gmail.com>	<51a711450805251814k48a0ab82x48de46abb50d2e80@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805252005r1be60625p4ee0818ff0408224@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <483A30A0.2050603@163.com>

还是用纸条提问好。交流更有效。

Zoom.Quiet wrote:
> 2008/5/26 beck917 <beck917在gmail.com>:
>   
>> 那天也去了,顶上去
>>
>> 最后那天女生问stallman,电视之类的我们不需要知道制作过程,软件需要吗?
>>
>> stallman最后和她交流了老长时间,不知道怎么回答的...最后实在太乱了,没听到
>>
>>     
> 这事儿很严重!
>
> 自由提问时的秩序组织能力,是反应组委会能力的直接指标哪!
>
>
>
>   


-- 
金庆

欢迎访问：金庆的专栏 ( http://blog.csdn.net/jq0123 )
欢迎加入：上海程序员 ( http://groups.google.com/group/programmers_sh )



From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Mon May 26 11:58:18 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 11:58:18 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?6L2s6L2977yaIOingiAyMDA45ZOy5oCd6Ieq?=
	=?utf-8?b?55Sx6L2v5Lu25bOw5LyaIOacieaEnw==?=
In-Reply-To: <889df83e0805252053r6157fc44w3bcd759443550f72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <889df83e0805252053r6157fc44w3bcd759443550f72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805252058u6bae40b2g2842f14f01ac0679@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/26 blackjack xu <blackjack.xu在gmail.com>:
> 作者：吴愚
>
> 今天是长见识的一天。

体验记述的短了点, 这么看下来,反而令大家感觉这 M$的哥儿们胆N肥哪!

> 预定演讲流程是：
> 虚拟化技术 ---- 李欣 ( from intel )
> 中国经典哲学和自由软件 ---- Akira Urushibata (日本人)
> Free Software in Ethics and Practice ---- Richard Stallman
> 自由软件和哲思社区 ---- 徐继哲
>
> 开场是复旦大学软院院长致开幕辞，这人很识大体，估计到场会有偏激人士，趁下边还没
> 吵起来赶紧说了两句套话后结束。
>
> 然后是Intel的李欣。这人估计会把今天当作人生一大败笔吧。首先是今天那么多开源和
> 自由软件人士在场的情况下居然用windows的电脑，估计引起了很多人不满。然后他信心
> 不足，语句不连贯，意思表达不清楚，在座观众就有些不耐烦了。大概过了20分钟，坐周
> 渊旁边得一个哥们儿举手，站起来愤怒的说："我今天特地从外地赶来，是来听关于Free
> Software的演讲，不是来听你Intel打广告！"引起全场欢呼，搞的李欣面红耳赤，不知所
> 措。但是他还是坚持到演讲结束，却又问了Richard一个不该问的问题："你怎么看待在虚
> 拟机中装windows
> xp?"结果当然是被一顿狂熊。
>
> Readmore
>
> --
> 开源需要新思路：http://www.17lamp.net/blog/blackjack/viewpoint/2007101013
>
> blog:http://www.17lamp.net/blog/blackjack



-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com  Mon May 26 12:01:24 2008
From: zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com (Zhengpeng Hou)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 12:01:24 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?6L2s6L2977yaIOingiAyMDA45ZOy5oCd6Ieq?=
	=?utf-8?b?55Sx6L2v5Lu25bOw5LyaIOacieaEnw==?=
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805252058u6bae40b2g2842f14f01ac0679@mail.gmail.com>
References: <889df83e0805252053r6157fc44w3bcd759443550f72@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805252058u6bae40b2g2842f14f01ac0679@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf0bb42f0805252101m2b7e83au7c6a266870586f20@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/26 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/26 blackjack xu <blackjack.xu at gmail.com>:
>> 作者：吴愚
>>
>> 今天是长见识的一天。
>
> 体验记述的短了点, 这么看下来,反而令大家感觉这 M$的哥儿们胆N肥哪!
>
>> 预定演讲流程是：
>> 虚拟化技术 ---- 李欣 ( from intel )
>> 中国经典哲学和自由软件 ---- Akira Urushibata (日本人)
>> Free Software in Ethics and Practice ---- Richard Stallman
>> 自由软件和哲思社区 ---- 徐继哲
>>
>> 开场是复旦大学软院院长致开幕辞，这人很识大体，估计到场会有偏激人士，趁下边还没
>> 吵起来赶紧说了两句套话后结束。
>>
>> 然后是Intel的李欣。这人估计会把今天当作人生一大败笔吧。首先是今天那么多开源和
>> 自由软件人士在场的情况下居然用windows的电脑，估计引起了很多人不满。然后他信心
>> 不足，语句不连贯，意思表达不清楚，在座观众就有些不耐烦了。大概过了20分钟，坐周
>> 渊旁边得一个哥们儿举手，站起来愤怒的说："我今天特地从外地赶来，是来听关于Free
>> Software的演讲，不是来听你Intel打广告！"引起全场欢呼，搞的李欣面红耳赤，不知所
>> 措。但是他还是坚持到演讲结束，却又问了Richard一个不该问的问题："你怎么看待在虚
>> 拟机中装windows
>> xp?"结果当然是被一顿狂熊。
自由的同时也意味着尊重别人的选择，好好领会自由之本真方为正道。

From hongqn在gmail.com  Mon May 26 12:01:59 2008
From: hongqn在gmail.com (Qiangning Hong)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 12:01:59 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?gb2312?b?W3NobHVnXSBSZTogUk1T0d29srXEMH4yMLfW?= =?gb2312?b?1tM=?=
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bb2572a80805250611o46589e8ahfb8733757546fba@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250611m79477d36m8b57b7eeaf4df1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b64ef0ce0805252101w4fceca1fsbf8110302797097b@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/25 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/25 easthero <easthero在gmail.com>:
>> puzhengcai 写道:
>> Urushibata刚从宾馆赶来，一来到会场以为Richard
>> Stallman会寒暄几句，结果没有，他先是坐下来，打开他的一个包拿出OLPC，很酷（会议结束时大家都上前与他亲密接触，我看看了OLPC用的系统，结果屏幕是像GNU/Linux刚启动时的画面，没有看到菜单之类的图形界面，我想还是算了我反正看不懂，估计他在编程吧）然后Richard

[...snip...]

相信那个是GNU Emacs.

From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Mon May 26 12:11:07 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 12:11:07 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSBSZTogUk1T5ryU6K6y55qEMH4y?=
	=?utf-8?b?MOWIhumSnw==?=
In-Reply-To: <b64ef0ce0805252101w4fceca1fsbf8110302797097b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bb2572a80805250611o46589e8ahfb8733757546fba@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250611m79477d36m8b57b7eeaf4df1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>
	<b64ef0ce0805252101w4fceca1fsbf8110302797097b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805252111i1a1dd482j745284d70e00a68@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/26 Qiangning Hong <hongqn在gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/25 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>:
>> 2008/5/25 easthero <easthero在gmail.com>:
>>> puzhengcai 写道:
>>> Urushibata刚从宾馆赶来，一来到会场以为Richard
>>> Stallman会寒暄几句，结果没有，他先是坐下来，打开他的一个包拿出OLPC，很酷（会议结束时大家都上前与他亲密接触，我看看了OLPC用的系统，结果屏幕是像GNU/Linux刚启动时的画面，没有看到菜单之类的图形界面，我想还是算了我反正看不懂，估计他在编程吧）然后Richard
>
> [...snip...]
>
> 相信那个是GNU Emacs.
>
OLPC 上好象难以安装这种重型环境的...



-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From hongqn在gmail.com  Mon May 26 12:41:16 2008
From: hongqn在gmail.com (Qiangning Hong)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 12:41:16 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?gb2312?b?W3NobHVnXSBSZTogUk1T0d29srXEMH4yMLfW?= =?gb2312?b?1tM=?=
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805252111i1a1dd482j745284d70e00a68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bb2572a80805250611o46589e8ahfb8733757546fba@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250611m79477d36m8b57b7eeaf4df1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb2572a80805250616t455e9aeakb88dfd7de56ffdf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805250621m5ce330a5j69ec94f72fb57422@mail.gmail.com>
	<b64ef0ce0805252101w4fceca1fsbf8110302797097b@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805252111i1a1dd482j745284d70e00a68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b64ef0ce0805252141w408c3d72v394f3fc8ba3e31cc@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/26 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/26 Qiangning Hong <hongqn在gmail.com>:
>> 相信那个是GNU Emacs.
>>
> OLPC 上好象难以安装这种重型环境的...

好像是可以的：

http://www.olpclaptophacks.com/2008/03/17/installing-emacs/


-- 
Qiangning Hong
http://www.douban.com/people/hongqn/

From zhangweiwu在realss.com  Mon May 26 14:19:24 2008
From: zhangweiwu在realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 14:19:24 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
 =?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
In-Reply-To: <483A1AA4.50705@realss.com>
References: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com>
	<eac7fba60805250518i3e8fa4afv5003ee21aa86ef83@mail.gmail.com>
	<483A1AA4.50705@realss.com>
Message-ID: <483A566C.2080204@realss.com>

Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> Jiahua Huang wrote:
>   
>> 2008/5/25 Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com>:
>>   
>>     
>>>> 快捷提示： 对于非Windows用户，就非Windows平台支持程度看，如果您的所在
>>>> 地有浦东发展银行，优选浦东发展银行。如无，看本地是否有广东发展银行，次
>>>> 选广东发展银行 （开通网上支付需使用IE、不被易趣支持，快钱对其支持似有
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> 如果是说:
>>   
>>     
>>> 广东发展银行网上银行必须IE方能登录， 但是原因是因为其Javascript错误，并非因为使用了必须依赖IE的ActiveX。 也就是说此行完全可以改正完善它。
>>>     
>>>       
>> 那么 firefox 应当可以用油猴子插件搞定，
>> 或用 khtml、webkit、opera 碰下运气。
>>   
>>     
> 有道理，忘了使用
>
> khtml、webkit、opera 
> 试。因为只有IE不是跨平台的。后面几种支持它的话，也应该算数。
>   
已经测试Opera可以的（在powerpc上）。webkit/khtml没试，因为没有K系列的东
西（Gentoo上如果要装起来也很费时）。谁可以帮助测试一下？

From zhangweiwu在realss.com  Mon May 26 14:40:11 2008
From: zhangweiwu在realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 14:40:11 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
 =?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
In-Reply-To: <483A566C.2080204@realss.com>
References: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com>	<eac7fba60805250518i3e8fa4afv5003ee21aa86ef83@mail.gmail.com>	<483A1AA4.50705@realss.com>
	<483A566C.2080204@realss.com>
Message-ID: <483A5B4B.1060405@realss.com>

Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> 已经测试Opera可以的（在powerpc上）。webkit/khtml没试，因为没有K系列的东
> 西（Gentoo上如果要装起来也很费时）。谁可以帮助测试一下？
> _______________________________________________
已经更新网站反映这个情况。

From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Mon May 26 22:19:25 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 22:19:25 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com>
	<4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org>
	<200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/26 Wang Guoqin <wangguoqin1001在gmail.com>:
> 不好意思，今天回到学校才看到maillist里面那么多的讨论，在此也发表一些我参加活动的感想吧。
> 老实说，参加了这个活动，我是比较失望的。早知道这样，还不如直接来参加shlug的活动呢（我听完zeuux准备来的，可发了一条短信半天没收到回复，以为你们都散了呢，就回家了。等收到回复，已经是半夜的事情了，没来成，很遗憾 :( ）
> 早就料到RMS的演讲就是一说教，但万万没料到会这样。且不说这么说教如何，单就这次听讲座，感觉RMS的人品实在也不咋地，至少没达到一个FSF创始人应有的水平。

反方意见来了！很好，对于没有历史使命感的人，的确会有这种感觉的，
谁有储备的，释放吧...

> 本来Intel的这个讲座是不错的，是我主要想听的内容，主讲人也不赖，但问题就在下面的那些人根本不想听他说。一开始李欣想让讨论活跃一些，谁知道就此开始了完全不着边际的讨论，下面的人都在问一些完全没有关系的问题，弄得李欣非常尴尬，又解释不清。PPT讲了半天，主要的内容都只能跳掉——懂的人不想听，不懂的人也不想听。本来他有三刻钟的，结果讲到半个钟头的时候，下面都坐不住了，开始轰他下台。李欣的处置还是不错的，挽回了一点局面，可是RMS在旁边还鼓动大家起来反对（至少我看着是这么个意思），结果下面某位据说是外地赶来的人（我没听清这个）便开始肆无忌惮的攻击，还在攻击Open Source，结果一个类似学院领导的人物出来说话，才平息了这一场风波。至于在VMM上面装xp的问题，李欣并没有问RMS，只是RMS在那里听不懂中文，听到又是Linux又是Windows的，问李欣怎么回事，李欣大致解释了一下，于是早就坐得不耐烦的RMS就借题发挥，开始攻击Windows，说你不能因为在Linux上面装一个Windows，就让Windows变得不evil了，大家都永远不应该用Windows（这都什么跟什么啊）。此时李欣认识到大势已去，只好赶快结束了事，估计算上RMS迟到的时间也才到45分钟吧。其实李欣的演讲也没涉及多少商业的东西，大多讲的是VMM、Xen和KVM的东西，就Intel的市场占有率来说，讲点Intel的虚拟化技术也不为过；但大家就认为他是在做广告。
> 然后是那日本人。估计是徐继哲之前说了不少他如何如何牛的事，也因为他跟RMS关系持久且友好，更因为他在那儿用中文说了很多很玄的东西，大家都没怎么听懂吧，于是也没什么人反对，顺顺当当地讲完了。
> 于是最后轮到RMS出场了。早看到大家称他老愤青了，心里有所准备。他一上来就说Proprietary Software多么多么邪恶，然后开始推销他的free software理念，推销他的GNU系统，这些都不消我说了，谈一些根本问题。
> 首先，既然他在李欣的演讲中打断他、支持下面学生的反对活动，还在那里反对他的Windows on Linux理论，那他自己讲的时候，也应该随和一点的。但不，他从一开始，到最后，对于离场的人极为反感，多次提到这个问题，认为别人不尊重他；他又尊重过李欣了吗？演讲拖了几乎两倍的时间，把别人的计划都打乱了，是尊重别人吗？当徐继哲看他快讲完了，叫人拿展板进来，他却非常光火，叫他们把展板翻过去，否则就没人听他的演讲了（其实这时候他在说Free Software in Education的问题——更加理论化，本来就没人感兴趣）。还有当堂大嚼M&M的事情，动作多么夸张，让下面那么多人看着，一吃还吃了半个钟头，不会一口多吃点吗？我感觉这个是对我们下面观众的极大不尊重，再说严重点，就是在耍大牌。
> 对于李欣，他就更没有尊重可言了。提问的时候李欣充当翻译，下面人说了一些无关痛痒的话，李欣就不翻了，就算给国家元首做翻译的人也经常这么做的，但RMS偏不，他想那个人叽哩咕噜说了那么多中文，你丫怎么一声不吭呢。于是打断人家说话，跟李欣说，没人能记那么多，你得让他停下来，你翻译好，再说下去。李欣说这我没啥好说的呀，RMS说他不是说了那么多了。于是李欣只好一句一句给他翻，RMS一再让他这么翻，他只好把那些应当忽略掉的话一句一句跟他说，还时不时得跑到下面去问提问的人，你刚说啥了。本来翻译就是一件很随意的事情，搞的下面那么多复旦学生好像都没学过口译，还要RMS教一样……可怜的李欣！
> 然后关于GNU和Linux的问题。确实Linux只是一个内核，但GNU也不是一完整操作系统呀，也不过就几个小软件，还未必人家都在用呢。Gnome是GNU的吗？KDE是GNU的吗？Firefox是GNU的吗？Pidgin是GNU的吗？但他在介绍GNU的时候，就认为GNU是这个Free OS的主体，Linux不过是一内核，所以你们说Linux是不对的（这个我同意），得说GNU/Linux（这个本身我不反对的），然后就GNU的发展历史，开始贬低Linux，疯狂贬低Linux，让我感觉Linux还不如GNU里面的某个小软件，感觉Linus是欺世大盗，你们说Linux而不说GNU/Linux就是大盗的同伙。凭什么啊？那也应该说Gnome/Firefox/Pidgin/GNU/Linux，也轮不到你GNU一家独大吧？就你一些GNU组件，就算Hurd测试成功了（且不说这个玩意儿多么失败），出来一个GNU操作系统，我看能有多少人用！本来想就这个问题对他提问的，但没抓到机会，算了，他心目中自我形象太高大，没别人生存的地方的。
> 对于他的观点，我大致是这么理解的：他所说的Free Software的Free，指的是Freedom，而这一概念很抽象，至少在中国目前的情况下是很难让大家接受的，也解释不清楚。要理解什么是Freedom，建议多看看西方电影，比如<<A Brave Heart>>之类。他的思想，就是那个思想，软件只是其中的一部分，于是他的整个理论都建立在Freedom之上，如果没有全盘的Freedom，包括经济的Freedom，政治的Freedom等，也就没有软件的Freedom。这也难怪他对XZ有这样的看法了；但他的思想是不现实的，在这样的思想下FSF能坚持到今天，出现这样的一个规模，实在是一个奇迹。在这里他还是比较收敛的，闭口不谈XZ的问题，而开始三句话不离骂Bush，至于一些私有软件厂商，以MS为主，更被他骂得体无完肤，似乎Gates根本就没有活着的意义了。如此激进的想法，我也是第一次遇到。后面提问的时候一些人问了一些比较实际的问题，比如对于现在这些现实的问题，我们怎么处理，他就开始说大道理，说你们根本就不该用Windows，所有人都不该用Windows，用了Windows你们就没有Freedom了，用Windows的人是傻子（至少我是这么感觉的），如此如此。人家一再追问实际情况下该怎么办，他就这么应付，再后来就出现了那个"一片混乱的情形了"。顺便还有一个问题，话筒传下去给提问的人了，提问的人也都很用力说了，我们也都能听见了，他还是在说听不见，而且语气不是"请说响点"的样子，而是像"你说啥，我听不见，听不见"的样子，没有一点起码的尊重。
> 总的下来，我感觉他并不尊重别人，没有一个大人物应有的风度，人品一般偏低。理想有，但不切实际，这么完全追求Freedom的人物是任何一个好莱坞影片都不敢塑造的，更别提现实的人了。估计FSF里面也没人像他那么激进了，于是才有了我们现在所看到的这一切；要他一个人的话，早散了，曲高和寡嘛。他完全反对Proprietary Software，认为一切公司的产品、我们购买的一切（前面说过，不限于Software）都应该是Free的，我们不该为Proprietary的公司工作，不该买他们的产品，不该用，看都不该看，于是一开始李欣用PPT的时候就注定了要受他的鄙视（虽然那个日本人也用PPT的）。对于我们来说，他的观点，听听可以（虽然有些接受不了），对于实际工作学习并没什么作用，听过算数，不听更好。
>
> 在 Monday 26 May 2008 03:53:29，Sha Li Jun 写道：
>> Thomas X. Iverson 写道:
>> > 2008/5/25 Wu Yu <vestige.lug在gmail.com>:
>> >
>> >> 今天Intel的主讲人被摆了一道吧，在场观众对Intel的虚拟化技术不感兴趣
>> >> 站起来公然反对，场面很尴尬。然后Intel主讲人又问Richard对虚拟机中
>> >> 跑xp有什么感想（大概是这个问题，记不太清楚了），结果自然是被Richard
>> >> 批了一顿。。。
>> >>
>> 这个主讲人居然向RMS问这么有挑战性的问题。。。。。
>>
>> 其实我对虚拟化技术还是蛮感兴趣的。。。。。
>>
>



-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From cheungtifan在gmail.com  Mon May 26 23:07:16 2008
From: cheungtifan在gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 15:37:16 +0030
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
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In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
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	<4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org>
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Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>

RMS自称为圣贤(I'm a saint),由此也可见一斑。他思想太激进，虽然我赞同他的部分观点。

On 5/26/08, Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/5/26 Wang Guoqin <wangguoqin1001 at gmail.com>:
>> 不好意思，今天回到学校才看到maillist里面那么多的讨论，在此也发表一些我参加活动的感想吧。
>> 老实说，参加了这个活动，我是比较失望的。早知道这样，还不如直接来参加shlug的活动呢（我听完zeuux准备来的，可发了一条短信半天没收到回复，以为你们都散了呢，就回家了。等收到回复，已经是半夜的事情了，没来成，很遗憾
>> :( ）
>> 早就料到RMS的演讲就是一说教，但万万没料到会这样。且不说这么说教如何，单就这次听讲座，感觉RMS的人品实在也不咋地，至少没达到一个FSF创始人应有的水平。
>
> 反方意见来了！很好，对于没有历史使命感的人，的确会有这种感觉的，
> 谁有储备的，释放吧...
>
>> 本来Intel的这个讲座是不错的，是我主要想听的内容，主讲人也不赖，但问题就在下面的那些人根本不想听他说。一开始李欣想让讨论活跃一些，谁知道就此开始了完全不着边际的讨论，下面的人都在问一些完全没有关系的问题，弄得李欣非常尴尬，又解释不清。PPT讲了半天，主要的内容都只能跳掉——懂的人不想听，不懂的人也不想听。本来他有三刻钟的，结果讲到半个钟头的时候，下面都坐不住了，开始轰他下台。李欣的处置还是不错的，挽回了一点局面，可是RMS在旁边还鼓动大家起来反对（至少我看着是这么个意思），结果下面某位据说是外地赶来的人（我没听清这个）便开始肆无忌惮的攻击，还在攻击Open
>> Source，结果一个类似学院领导的人物出来说话，才平息了这一场风波。至于在VMM上面装xp的问题，李欣并没有问RMS，只是RMS在那里听不懂中文，听到又是Linux又是Windows的，问李欣怎么回事，李欣大致解释了一下，于是早就坐得不耐烦的RMS就借题发挥，开始攻击Windows，说你不能因为在Linux上面装一个Windows，就让Windows变得不evil了，大家都永远不应该用Windows（这都什么跟什么啊）。此时李欣认识到大势已去，只好赶快结束了事，估计算上RMS迟到的时间也才到45分钟吧。其实李欣的演讲也没涉及多少商业的东西，大多讲的是VMM、Xen和KVM的东西，就Intel的市场占有率来说，讲点Intel的虚拟化技术也不为过；但大家就认为他是在做广告。
>> 然后是那日本人。估计是徐继哲之前说了不少他如何如何牛的事，也因为他跟RMS关系持久且友好，更因为他在那儿用中文说了很多很玄的东西，大家都没怎么听懂吧，于是也没什么人反对，顺顺当当地讲完了。
>> 于是最后轮到RMS出场了。早看到大家称他老愤青了，心里有所准备。他一上来就说Proprietary
>> Software多么多么邪恶，然后开始推销他的free software理念，推销他的GNU系统，这些都不消我说了，谈一些根本问题。
>> 首先，既然他在李欣的演讲中打断他、支持下面学生的反对活动，还在那里反对他的Windows on
>> Linux理论，那他自己讲的时候，也应该随和一点的。但不，他从一开始，到最后，对于离场的人极为反感，多次提到这个问题，认为别人不尊重他；他又尊重过李欣了吗？演讲拖了几乎两倍的时间，把别人的计划都打乱了，是尊重别人吗？当徐继哲看他快讲完了，叫人拿展板进来，他却非常光火，叫他们把展板翻过去，否则就没人听他的演讲了（其实这时候他在说Free
>> Software in
>> Education的问题——更加理论化，本来就没人感兴趣）。还有当堂大嚼M&M的事情，动作多么夸张，让下面那么多人看着，一吃还吃了半个钟头，不会一口多吃点吗？我感觉这个是对我们下面观众的极大不尊重，再说严重点，就是在耍大牌。
>> 对于李欣，他就更没有尊重可言了。提问的时候李欣充当翻译，下面人说了一些无关痛痒的话，李欣就不翻了，就算给国家元首做翻译的人也经常这么做的，但RMS偏不，他想那个人叽哩咕噜说了那么多中文，你丫怎么一声不吭呢。于是打断人家说话，跟李欣说，没人能记那么多，你得让他停下来，你翻译好，再说下去。李欣说这我没啥好说的呀，RMS说他不是说了那么多了。于是李欣只好一句一句给他翻，RMS一再让他这么翻，他只好把那些应当忽略掉的话一句一句跟他说，还时不时得跑到下面去问提问的人，你刚说啥了。本来翻译就是一件很随意的事情，搞的下面那么多复旦学生好像都没学过口译，还要RMS教一样……可怜的李欣！
>> 然后关于GNU和Linux的问题。确实Linux只是一个内核，但GNU也不是一完整操作系统呀，也不过就几个小软件，还未必人家都在用呢。Gnome是GNU的吗？KDE是GNU的吗？Firefox是GNU的吗？Pidgin是GNU的吗？但他在介绍GNU的时候，就认为GNU是这个Free
>> OS的主体，Linux不过是一内核，所以你们说Linux是不对的（这个我同意），得说GNU/Linux（这个本身我不反对的），然后就GNU的发展历史，开始贬低Linux，疯狂贬低Linux，让我感觉Linux还不如GNU里面的某个小软件，感觉Linus是欺世大盗，你们说Linux而不说GNU/Linux就是大盗的同伙。凭什么啊？那也应该说Gnome/Firefox/Pidgin/GNU/Linux，也轮不到你GNU一家独大吧？就你一些GNU组件，就算Hurd测试成功了（且不说这个玩意儿多么失败），出来一个GNU操作系统，我看能有多少人用！本来想就这个问题对他提问的，但没抓到机会，算了，他心目中自我形象太高大，没别人生存的地方的。
>> 对于他的观点，我大致是这么理解的：他所说的Free
>> Software的Free，指的是Freedom，而这一概念很抽象，至少在中国目前的情况下是很难让大家接受的，也解释不清楚。要理解什么是Freedom，建议多看看西方电影，比如<<A
>> Brave
>> Heart>>之类。他的思想，就是那个思想，软件只是其中的一部分，于是他的整个理论都建立在Freedom之上，如果没有全盘的Freedom，包括经济的Freedom，政治的Freedom等，也就没有软件的Freedom。这也难怪他对XZ有这样的看法了；但他的思想是不现实的，在这样的思想下FSF能坚持到今天，出现这样的一个规模，实在是一个奇迹。在这里他还是比较收敛的，闭口不谈XZ的问题，而开始三句话不离骂Bush，至于一些私有软件厂商，以MS为主，更被他骂得体无完肤，似乎Gates根本就没有活着的意义了。如此激进的想法，我也是第一次遇到。后面提问的时候一些人问了一些比较实际的问题，比如对于现在这些现实的问题，我们怎么处理，他就开始说大道理，说你们根本就不该用Windows，所有人都不该用Windows，用了Windows你们就没有Freedom了，用Windows的人是傻子（至少我是这么感觉的），如此如此。人家一再追问实际情况下该怎么办，他就这么应付，再后来就出现了那个"一片混乱的情形了"。顺便还有一个问题，话筒传下去给提问的人了，提问的人也都很用力说了，我们也都能听见了，他还是在说听不见，而且语气不是"请说响点"的样子，而是像"你说啥，我听不见，听不见"的样子，没有一点起码的尊重。
>> 总的下来，我感觉他并不尊重别人，没有一个大人物应有的风度，人品一般偏低。理想有，但不切实际，这么完全追求Freedom的人物是任何一个好莱坞影片都不敢塑造的，更别提现实的人了。估计FSF里面也没人像他那么激进了，于是才有了我们现在所看到的这一切；要他一个人的话，早散了，曲高和寡嘛。他完全反对Proprietary
>> Software，认为一切公司的产品、我们购买的一切（前面说过，不限于Software）都应该是Free的，我们不该为Proprietary的公司工作，不该买他们的产品，不该用，看都不该看，于是一开始李欣用PPT的时候就注定了要受他的鄙视（虽然那个日本人也用PPT的）。对于我们来说，他的观点，听听可以（虽然有些接受不了），对于实际工作学习并没什么作用，听过算数，不听更好。
>>
>> 在 Monday 26 May 2008 03:53:29，Sha Li Jun 写道：
>>> Thomas X. Iverson 写道:
>>> > 2008/5/25 Wu Yu <vestige.lug at gmail.com>:
>>> >
>>> >> 今天Intel的主讲人被摆了一道吧，在场观众对Intel的虚拟化技术不感兴趣
>>> >> 站起来公然反对，场面很尴尬。然后Intel主讲人又问Richard对虚拟机中
>>> >> 跑xp有什么感想（大概是这个问题，记不太清楚了），结果自然是被Richard
>>> >> 批了一顿。。。
>>> >>
>>> 这个主讲人居然向RMS问这么有挑战性的问题。。。。。
>>>
>>> 其实我对虚拟化技术还是蛮感兴趣的。。。。。
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
> '''http://zoomquiet.org
> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From jennyyao在zeuux.org  Mon May 26 23:10:02 2008
From: jennyyao在zeuux.org (Jenny Yao)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 23:10:02 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com><1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com><4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org><200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com><9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801c8bf42$92ca7e30$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Zhang" <cheungtifan at gmail.com>
To: "Zoom. Quiet" <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>
Cc: "Zeuux" <zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>; <shlug at googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe][shlug] 请今天去复旦骚包的发表图片和感̾


> RMS自称为圣贤(I'm a saint),由此也可见一斑。他思想太激进，虽然我赞同他的部分观点。
> 
> On 5/26/08, Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2008/5/26 Wang Guoqin <wangguoqin1001 at gmail.com>:
>>> 不好意思，今天回到学校才看到maillist里面那么多的讨论，在此也发表一些我参加活动的感想吧。
>>> 老实说，参加了这个活动，我是比较失望的。早知道这样，还不如直接来参加shlug的活动呢（我听完zeuux准备来的，可发了一条短信半天没收到回复，以为你们都散了呢，就回家了。等收到回复，已经是半夜的事情了，没来成，很遗憾
>>> :( ）
>>> 早就料到RMS的演讲就是一说教，但万万没料到会这样。且不说这么说教如何，单就这次听讲座，感觉RMS的人品实在也不咋地，至少没达到一个FSF创始人应有的水平。
>>
>> 反方意见来了！很好，对于没有历史使命感的人，的确会有这种感觉的，
>> 谁有储备的，释放吧...
>>
>>> 本来Intel的这个讲座是不错的，是我主要想听的内容，主讲人也不赖，但问题就在下面的那些人根本不想听他说。一开始李欣想让讨论活跃一些，谁知道就此开始了完全不着边际的讨论，下面的人都在问一些完全没有关系的问题，弄得李欣非常尴尬，又解释不清。PPT讲了半天，主要的内容都只能跳掉——懂的人不想听，不懂的人也不想听。本来他有三刻钟的，结果讲到半个钟头的时候，下面都坐不住了，开始轰他下台。李欣的处置还是不错的，挽回了一点局面，可是RMS在旁边还鼓动大家起来反对（至少我看着是这么个意思），结果下面某位据说是外地赶来的人（我没听清这个）便开始肆无忌惮的攻击，还在攻击Open
>>> Source，结果一个类似学院领导的人物出来说话，才平息了这一场风波。至于在VMM上面装xp的问题，李欣并没有问RMS，只是RMS在那里听不懂中文，听到又是Linux又是Windows的，问李欣怎么回事，李欣大致解释了一下，于是早就坐得不耐烦的RMS就借题发挥，开始攻击Windows，说你不能因为在Linux上面装一个Windows，就让Windows变得不evil了，大家都永远不应该用Windows（这都什么跟什么啊）。此时李欣认识到大势已去，只好赶快结束了事，估计算上RMS迟到的时间也才到45分钟吧。其实李欣的演讲也没涉及多少商业的东西，大多讲的是VMM、Xen和KVM的东西，就Intel的市场占有率来说，讲点Intel的虚拟化技术也不为过；但大家就认为他是在做广告。
>>> 然后是那日本人。估计是徐继哲之前说了不少他如何如何牛的事，也因为他跟RMS关系持久且友好，更因为他在那儿用中文说了很多很玄的东西，大家都没怎么听懂吧，于是也没什么人反对，顺顺当当地讲完了。
>>> 于是最后轮到RMS出场了。早看到大家称他老愤青了，心里有所准备。他一上来就说Proprietary
>>> Software多么多么邪恶，然后开始推销他的free software理念，推销他的GNU系统，这些都不消我说了，谈一些根本问题。
>>> 首先，既然他在李欣的演讲中打断他、支持下面学生的反对活动，还在那里反对他的Windows on
>>> Linux理论，那他自己讲的时候，也应该随和一点的。但不，他从一开始，到最后，对于离场的人极为反感，多次提到这个问题，认为别人不尊重他；他又尊重过李欣了吗？演讲拖了几乎两倍的时间，把别人的计划都打乱了，是尊重别人吗？当徐继哲看他快讲完了，叫人拿展板进来，他却非常光火，叫他们把展板翻过去，否则就没人听他的演讲了（其实这时候他在说Free
>>> Software in
>>> Education的问题——更加理论化，本来就没人感兴趣）。还有当堂大嚼M&M的事情，动作多么夸张，让下面那么多人看着，一吃还吃了半个钟头，不会一口多吃点吗？我感觉这个是对我们下面观众的极大不尊重，再说严重点，就是在耍大牌。
>>> 对于李欣，他就更没有尊重可言了。提问的时候李欣充当翻译，下面人说了一些无关痛痒的话，李欣就不翻了，就算给国家元首做翻译的人也经常这么做的，但RMS偏不，他想那个人叽哩咕噜说了那么多中文，你丫怎么一声不吭呢。于是打断人家说话，跟李欣说，没人能记那么多，你得让他停下来，你翻译好，再说下去。李欣说这我没啥好说的呀，RMS说他不是说了那么多了。于是李欣只好一句一句给他翻，RMS一再让他这么翻，他只好把那些应当忽略掉的话一句一句跟他说，还时不时得跑到下面去问提问的人，你刚说啥了。本来翻译就是一件很随意的事情，搞的下面那么多复旦学生好像都没学过口译，还要RMS教一样……可怜的李欣！
>>> 然后关于GNU和Linux的问题。确实Linux只是一个内核，但GNU也不是一完整操作系统呀，也不过就几个小软件，还未必人家都在用呢。Gnome是GNU的吗？KDE是GNU的吗？Firefox是GNU的吗？Pidgin是GNU的吗？但他在介绍GNU的时候，就认为GNU是这个Free
>>> OS的主体，Linux不过是一内核，所以你们说Linux是不对的（这个我同意），得说GNU/Linux（这个本身我不反对的），然后就GNU的发展历史，开始贬低Linux，疯狂贬低Linux，让我感觉Linux还不如GNU里面的某个小软件，感觉Linus是欺世大盗，你们说Linux而不说GNU/Linux就是大盗的同伙。凭什么啊？那也应该说Gnome/Firefox/Pidgin/GNU/Linux，也轮不到你GNU一家独大吧？就你一些GNU组件，就算Hurd测试成功了（且不说这个玩意儿多么失败），出来一个GNU操作系统，我看能有多少人用！本来想就这个问题对他提问的，但没抓到机会，算了，他心目中自我形象太高大，没别人生存的地方的。
>>> 对于他的观点，我大致是这么理解的：他所说的Free
>>> Software的Free，指的是Freedom，而这一概念很抽象，至少在中国目前的情况下是很难让大家接受的，也解释不清楚。要理解什么是Freedom，建议多看看西方电影，比如<<A
>>> Brave
>>> Heart>>之类。他的思想，就是那个思想，软件只是其中的一部分，于是他的整个理论都建立在Freedom之上，如果没有全盘的Freedom，包括经济的Freedom，政治的Freedom等，也就没有软件的Freedom。这也难怪他对XZ有这样的看法了；但他的思想是不现实的，在这样的思想下FSF能坚持到今天，出现这样的一个规模，实在是一个奇迹。在这里他还是比较收敛的，闭口不谈XZ的问题，而开始三句话不离骂Bush，至于一些私有软件厂商，以MS为主，更被他骂得体无完肤，似乎Gates根本就没有活着的意义了。如此激进的想法，我也是第一次遇到。后面提问的时候一些人问了一些比较实际的问题，比如对于现在这些现实的问题，我们怎么处理，他就开始说大道理，说你们根本就不该用Windows，所有人都不该用Windows，用了Windows你们就没有Freedom了，用Windows的人是傻子（至少我是这么感觉的），如此如此。人家一再追问实际情况下该怎么办，他就这么应付，再后来就出现了那个"一片混乱的情形了"。顺便还有一个问题，话筒传下去给提问的人了，提问的人也都很用力说了，我们也都能听见了，他还是在说听不见，而且语气不是"请说响点"的样子，而是像"你说啥，我听不见，听不见"的样子，没有一点起码的尊重。
>>> 总的下来，我感觉他并不尊重别人，没有一个大人物应有的风度，人品一般偏低。理想有，但不切实际，这么完全追求Freedom的人物是任何一个好莱坞影片都不敢塑造的，更别提现实的人了。估计FSF里面也没人像他那么激进了，于是才有了我们现在所看到的这一切；要他一个人的话，早散了，曲高和寡嘛。他完全反对Proprietary
>>> Software，认为一切公司的产品、我们购买的一切（前面说过，不限于Software）都应该是Free的，我们不该为Proprietary的公司工作，不该买他们的产品，不该用，看都不该看，于是一开始李欣用PPT的时候就注定了要受他的鄙视（虽然那个日本人也用PPT的）。对于我们来说，他的观点，听听可以（虽然有些接受不了），对于实际工作学习并没什么作用，听过算数，不听更好。
>>>
>>> 在 Monday 26 May 2008 03:53:29，Sha Li Jun 写道：
>>>> Thomas X. Iverson 写道:
>>>> > 2008/5/25 Wu Yu <vestige.lug at gmail.com>:
>>>> >
>>>> >> 今天Intel的主讲人被摆了一道吧，在场观众对Intel的虚拟化技术不感兴趣
>>>> >> 站起来公然反对，场面很尴尬。然后Intel主讲人又问Richard对虚拟机中
>>>> >> 跑xp有什么感想（大概是这个问题，记不太清楚了），结果自然是被Richard
>>>> >> 批了一顿。。。
>>>> >>
>>>> 这个主讲人居然向RMS问这么有挑战性的问题。。。。。
>>>>
>>>> 其实我对虚拟化技术还是蛮感兴趣的。。。。。
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
>> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
>> '''http://zoomquiet.org
>> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
>> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
>> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> Notes:
> 1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
> 2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
> Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
> 3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
> 4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org

From jennyyao在zeuux.org  Mon May 26 23:11:38 2008
From: jennyyao在zeuux.org (Jenny Yao)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 23:11:38 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com><1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com><4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org><200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com><9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>

我一个星期 有四天都在陪RMS，的确他是一个太以自我为中心的人！ 而且有非常强的自我优越感！这是我们东方人很难接受的！

第一天，我也非常反感而且气氛！ 但是仔细想来，我们还是应该更宽容些！ 原因有四：

第一，东西方文化的差异，中国人特别注重理节，而且含蓄，通常想的和表现出来的是截然相反的！ 通常需要要两个大脑生活，一个在支配自己的思想，一个在支配自己的言行！所以中国人活的很累！而美国人只需要一个大脑足以支配自己的言行！所以活的很轻松！

第二，RICHARD虽然有很多缺点，但是他的一生有一个无人能及的HIGHLIGHT！ 这一点已经足够了！只要他不做违法的事情，我们都可以谅解！天才通常都是有常人无法接受的怪癖，否则他很难成为天才！

第三，多学习他身上的优点！他是如此的朴实，对工作是如此的狂热，任何时候，任何地方，他都会拿出他的小电脑，继续工作！我们谁能做到，要有天才的成就，是需要付出常人无法想象的代价！

第四，多学习他的精神，永不放弃，不管阻力多大，从不言难，只是坚持做下去！


我一周前读过一本书 曾仕强的《中国式管理》 里面以 中国人、美国人和日本人为代表讲述了 不同文化的处世哲学！ 其实大家都没有错！ 只是我们需要在正确的环境下用正确的方法处理问题！

这几天现实生活中就上演了这一幕！ RICHARD  AKIRA 和我们！


Jenny Yao

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Zhang" <cheungtifan at gmail.com>
To: "Zoom. Quiet" <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>
Cc: "Zeuux" <zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>; <shlug at googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe][shlug] 请今天去复旦骚包的发表图片和感̾


> RMS自称为圣贤(I'm a saint),由此也可见一斑。他思想太激进，虽然我赞同他的部分观点。
> 
> On 5/26/08, Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2008/5/26 Wang Guoqin <wangguoqin1001 at gmail.com>:
>>> 不好意思，今天回到学校才看到maillist里面那么多的讨论，在此也发表一些我参加活动的感想吧。
>>> 老实说，参加了这个活动，我是比较失望的。早知道这样，还不如直接来参加shlug的活动呢（我听完zeuux准备来的，可发了一条短信半天没收到回复，以为你们都散了呢，就回家了。等收到回复，已经是半夜的事情了，没来成，很遗憾
>>> :( ）
>>> 早就料到RMS的演讲就是一说教，但万万没料到会这样。且不说这么说教如何，单就这次听讲座，感觉RMS的人品实在也不咋地，至少没达到一个FSF创始人应有的水平。
>>
>> 反方意见来了！很好，对于没有历史使命感的人，的确会有这种感觉的，
>> 谁有储备的，释放吧...
>>
>>> 本来Intel的这个讲座是不错的，是我主要想听的内容，主讲人也不赖，但问题就在下面的那些人根本不想听他说。一开始李欣想让讨论活跃一些，谁知道就此开始了完全不着边际的讨论，下面的人都在问一些完全没有关系的问题，弄得李欣非常尴尬，又解释不清。PPT讲了半天，主要的内容都只能跳掉——懂的人不想听，不懂的人也不想听。本来他有三刻钟的，结果讲到半个钟头的时候，下面都坐不住了，开始轰他下台。李欣的处置还是不错的，挽回了一点局面，可是RMS在旁边还鼓动大家起来反对（至少我看着是这么个意思），结果下面某位据说是外地赶来的人（我没听清这个）便开始肆无忌惮的攻击，还在攻击Open
>>> Source，结果一个类似学院领导的人物出来说话，才平息了这一场风波。至于在VMM上面装xp的问题，李欣并没有问RMS，只是RMS在那里听不懂中文，听到又是Linux又是Windows的，问李欣怎么回事，李欣大致解释了一下，于是早就坐得不耐烦的RMS就借题发挥，开始攻击Windows，说你不能因为在Linux上面装一个Windows，就让Windows变得不evil了，大家都永远不应该用Windows（这都什么跟什么啊）。此时李欣认识到大势已去，只好赶快结束了事，估计算上RMS迟到的时间也才到45分钟吧。其实李欣的演讲也没涉及多少商业的东西，大多讲的是VMM、Xen和KVM的东西，就Intel的市场占有率来说，讲点Intel的虚拟化技术也不为过；但大家就认为他是在做广告。
>>> 然后是那日本人。估计是徐继哲之前说了不少他如何如何牛的事，也因为他跟RMS关系持久且友好，更因为他在那儿用中文说了很多很玄的东西，大家都没怎么听懂吧，于是也没什么人反对，顺顺当当地讲完了。
>>> 于是最后轮到RMS出场了。早看到大家称他老愤青了，心里有所准备。他一上来就说Proprietary
>>> Software多么多么邪恶，然后开始推销他的free software理念，推销他的GNU系统，这些都不消我说了，谈一些根本问题。
>>> 首先，既然他在李欣的演讲中打断他、支持下面学生的反对活动，还在那里反对他的Windows on
>>> Linux理论，那他自己讲的时候，也应该随和一点的。但不，他从一开始，到最后，对于离场的人极为反感，多次提到这个问题，认为别人不尊重他；他又尊重过李欣了吗？演讲拖了几乎两倍的时间，把别人的计划都打乱了，是尊重别人吗？当徐继哲看他快讲完了，叫人拿展板进来，他却非常光火，叫他们把展板翻过去，否则就没人听他的演讲了（其实这时候他在说Free
>>> Software in
>>> Education的问题——更加理论化，本来就没人感兴趣）。还有当堂大嚼M&M的事情，动作多么夸张，让下面那么多人看着，一吃还吃了半个钟头，不会一口多吃点吗？我感觉这个是对我们下面观众的极大不尊重，再说严重点，就是在耍大牌。
>>> 对于李欣，他就更没有尊重可言了。提问的时候李欣充当翻译，下面人说了一些无关痛痒的话，李欣就不翻了，就算给国家元首做翻译的人也经常这么做的，但RMS偏不，他想那个人叽哩咕噜说了那么多中文，你丫怎么一声不吭呢。于是打断人家说话，跟李欣说，没人能记那么多，你得让他停下来，你翻译好，再说下去。李欣说这我没啥好说的呀，RMS说他不是说了那么多了。于是李欣只好一句一句给他翻，RMS一再让他这么翻，他只好把那些应当忽略掉的话一句一句跟他说，还时不时得跑到下面去问提问的人，你刚说啥了。本来翻译就是一件很随意的事情，搞的下面那么多复旦学生好像都没学过口译，还要RMS教一样……可怜的李欣！
>>> 然后关于GNU和Linux的问题。确实Linux只是一个内核，但GNU也不是一完整操作系统呀，也不过就几个小软件，还未必人家都在用呢。Gnome是GNU的吗？KDE是GNU的吗？Firefox是GNU的吗？Pidgin是GNU的吗？但他在介绍GNU的时候，就认为GNU是这个Free
>>> OS的主体，Linux不过是一内核，所以你们说Linux是不对的（这个我同意），得说GNU/Linux（这个本身我不反对的），然后就GNU的发展历史，开始贬低Linux，疯狂贬低Linux，让我感觉Linux还不如GNU里面的某个小软件，感觉Linus是欺世大盗，你们说Linux而不说GNU/Linux就是大盗的同伙。凭什么啊？那也应该说Gnome/Firefox/Pidgin/GNU/Linux，也轮不到你GNU一家独大吧？就你一些GNU组件，就算Hurd测试成功了（且不说这个玩意儿多么失败），出来一个GNU操作系统，我看能有多少人用！本来想就这个问题对他提问的，但没抓到机会，算了，他心目中自我形象太高大，没别人生存的地方的。
>>> 对于他的观点，我大致是这么理解的：他所说的Free
>>> Software的Free，指的是Freedom，而这一概念很抽象，至少在中国目前的情况下是很难让大家接受的，也解释不清楚。要理解什么是Freedom，建议多看看西方电影，比如<<A
>>> Brave
>>> Heart>>之类。他的思想，就是那个思想，软件只是其中的一部分，于是他的整个理论都建立在Freedom之上，如果没有全盘的Freedom，包括经济的Freedom，政治的Freedom等，也就没有软件的Freedom。这也难怪他对XZ有这样的看法了；但他的思想是不现实的，在这样的思想下FSF能坚持到今天，出现这样的一个规模，实在是一个奇迹。在这里他还是比较收敛的，闭口不谈XZ的问题，而开始三句话不离骂Bush，至于一些私有软件厂商，以MS为主，更被他骂得体无完肤，似乎Gates根本就没有活着的意义了。如此激进的想法，我也是第一次遇到。后面提问的时候一些人问了一些比较实际的问题，比如对于现在这些现实的问题，我们怎么处理，他就开始说大道理，说你们根本就不该用Windows，所有人都不该用Windows，用了Windows你们就没有Freedom了，用Windows的人是傻子（至少我是这么感觉的），如此如此。人家一再追问实际情况下该怎么办，他就这么应付，再后来就出现了那个"一片混乱的情形了"。顺便还有一个问题，话筒传下去给提问的人了，提问的人也都很用力说了，我们也都能听见了，他还是在说听不见，而且语气不是"请说响点"的样子，而是像"你说啥，我听不见，听不见"的样子，没有一点起码的尊重。
>>> 总的下来，我感觉他并不尊重别人，没有一个大人物应有的风度，人品一般偏低。理想有，但不切实际，这么完全追求Freedom的人物是任何一个好莱坞影片都不敢塑造的，更别提现实的人了。估计FSF里面也没人像他那么激进了，于是才有了我们现在所看到的这一切；要他一个人的话，早散了，曲高和寡嘛。他完全反对Proprietary
>>> Software，认为一切公司的产品、我们购买的一切（前面说过，不限于Software）都应该是Free的，我们不该为Proprietary的公司工作，不该买他们的产品，不该用，看都不该看，于是一开始李欣用PPT的时候就注定了要受他的鄙视（虽然那个日本人也用PPT的）。对于我们来说，他的观点，听听可以（虽然有些接受不了），对于实际工作学习并没什么作用，听过算数，不听更好。
>>>
>>> 在 Monday 26 May 2008 03:53:29，Sha Li Jun 写道：
>>>> Thomas X. Iverson 写道:
>>>> > 2008/5/25 Wu Yu <vestige.lug at gmail.com>:
>>>> >
>>>> >> 今天Intel的主讲人被摆了一道吧，在场观众对Intel的虚拟化技术不感兴趣
>>>> >> 站起来公然反对，场面很尴尬。然后Intel主讲人又问Richard对虚拟机中
>>>> >> 跑xp有什么感想（大概是这个问题，记不太清楚了），结果自然是被Richard
>>>> >> 批了一顿。。。
>>>> >>
>>>> 这个主讲人居然向RMS问这么有挑战性的问题。。。。。
>>>>
>>>> 其实我对虚拟化技术还是蛮感兴趣的。。。。。
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
>> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
>> '''http://zoomquiet.org
>> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
>> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
>> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> Notes:
> 1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
> 2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
> Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
> 3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
> 4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org

From julien.gong在gmail.com  Tue May 27 00:33:36 2008
From: julien.gong在gmail.com (Julien GONG Min (Gmail))
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 00:33:36 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
	=?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
In-Reply-To: <5fdc2ee10805250919u666547bcyd2ee6968bc4035ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com> <48398441.6050709@zeuux.org>
	<5fdc2ee10805250919u666547bcyd2ee6968bc4035ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97be3a2f0805260933u5d8994f0oe24e8a412acfe21b@mail.gmail.com>

OT: Off Topic?

在我眼中，OT是加班的意思……

2008/5/26 Alex Zhang <cheungtifan在gmail.com>:

> 很遗憾，都不太好。四大国有银行的卡我都有，都没有办法用。
> btw, ot什么意思?
> Alex Zhang
>
> On 5/25/08, Bill Xu <bill在zeuux.org> wrote:
> >
> >> 报歉，此事OT，但是我觉得重要，还是发上来了。
> >>
> > 此事并不OT。
> >>
> >> 我自己现在使用广发银行了，因为我和我女朋友申请浦发信用卡都不成功（似因为
> >> 我们工作单位是厦门的，浦发业务不覆盖；但是他们是总不说申请失败的原因
> >> 的），而原本打算申请浦发信用卡后，申请其借记卡的。现在既然信用卡申请不成
> >> 功，手上正好有一张linux可用的网银（广发），就懒得再去申请浦发信用卡了。
> >>
> > 根据现在的使用情况，哪家银行对自由软件支持的最好？
> >
>
>
> --
> Notes:
> 1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
> 2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
> Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
> 3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
> 4. CheungTiFan在gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>



-- 
Julien, GONG Min
clie.com.cn/blog

Google Talk: Julien.Gong在gmail.com
MSN: gongmin在x263.net
Sina UC: 103327
Tel: +8610 6267 5933
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From qingran在zeuux.org  Tue May 27 00:44:24 2008
From: qingran在zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 00:44:24 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
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In-Reply-To: <006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com><1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com><4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org><200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com><9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
Message-ID: <483AE8E8.3060405@zeuux.org>

2005年夏天Richard来新浪做访谈，我当时曾经问他了一个比较弱的问题：“您还是 
否在为GNU Emacs编写代码”？一开始由于我声音过小，导致这位大叔没有听清楚我 
的问题而发镖，但是他听清后建议我去阅读GNU Emacs的代码并关注其CVS的变化， 
并送我了一张GNU & Linux的贴纸。当时的感觉这位大叔还不是很难接触。



Jenny Yao wrote:
> 我一个星期 有四天都在陪RMS，的确他是一个太以自我为中心的人！ 而且有非常强的自我优越感！这是我们东方人很难接受的！
>
> 第一天，我也非常反感而且气氛！ 但是仔细想来，我们还是应该更宽容些！ 原因有四：
>
> 第一，东西方文化的差异，中国人特别注重理节，而且含蓄，通常想的和表现出来的是截然相反的！ 通常需要要两个大脑生活，一个在支配自己的思想，一个在支配自己的言行！所以中国人活的很累！而美国人只需要一个大脑足以支配自己的言行！所以活的很轻松！
>
> 第二，RICHARD虽然有很多缺点，但是他的一生有一个无人能及的HIGHLIGHT！ 这一点已经足够了！只要他不做违法的事情，我们都可以谅解！天才通常都是有常人无法接受的怪癖，否则他很难成为天才！
>
> 第三，多学习他身上的优点！他是如此的朴实，对工作是如此的狂热，任何时候，任何地方，他都会拿出他的小电脑，继续工作！我们谁能做到，要有天才的成就，是需要付出常人无法想象的代价！
>
> 第四，多学习他的精神，永不放弃，不管阻力多大，从不言难，只是坚持做下去！
>
>
> 我一周前读过一本书 曾仕强的《中国式管理》 里面以 中国人、美国人和日本人为代表讲述了 不同文化的处世哲学！ 其实大家都没有错！ 只是我们需要在正确的环境下用正确的方法处理问题！
>
> 这几天现实生活中就上演了这一幕！ RICHARD  AKIRA 和我们！
>
>
> Jenny Yao
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alex Zhang" <cheungtifan at gmail.com>
> To: "Zoom. Quiet" <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Zeuux" <zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>; <shlug at googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe][shlug] 请今天去复旦骚包的发表图片和感̾
>
>
>   
>> RMS自称为圣贤(I'm a saint),由此也可见一斑。他思想太激进，虽然我赞同他的部分观点。
>>
>> On 5/26/08, Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> 2008/5/26 Wang Guoqin <wangguoqin1001 at gmail.com>:
>>>       
>>>> 不好意思，今天回到学校才看到maillist里面那么多的讨论，在此也发表一些我参加活动的感想吧。
>>>> 老实说，参加了这个活动，我是比较失望的。早知道这样，还不如直接来参加shlug的活动呢（我听完zeuux准备来的，可发了一条短信半天没收到回复，以为你们都散了呢，就回家了。等收到回复，已经是半夜的事情了，没来成，很遗憾
>>>> :( ）
>>>> 早就料到RMS的演讲就是一说教，但万万没料到会这样。且不说这么说教如何，单就这次听讲座，感觉RMS的人品实在也不咋地，至少没达到一个FSF创始人应有的水平。
>>>>         
>>> 反方意见来了！很好，对于没有历史使命感的人，的确会有这种感觉的，
>>> 谁有储备的，释放吧...
>>>
>>>       
>>>> 本来Intel的这个讲座是不错的，是我主要想听的内容，主讲人也不赖，但问题就在下面的那些人根本不想听他说。一开始李欣想让讨论活跃一些，谁知道就此开始了完全不着边际的讨论，下面的人都在问一些完全没有关系的问题，弄得李欣非常尴尬，又解释不清。PPT讲了半天，主要的内容都只能跳掉——懂的人不想听，不懂的人也不想听。本来他有三刻钟的，结果讲到半个钟头的时候，下面都坐不住了，开始轰他下台。李欣的处置还是不错的，挽回了一点局面，可是RMS在旁边还鼓动大家起来反对（至少我看着是这么个意思），结果下面某位据说是外地赶来的人（我没听清这个）便开始肆无忌惮的攻击，还在攻击Open
>>>> Source，结果一个类似学院领导的人物出来说话，才平息了这一场风波。至于在VMM上面装xp的问题，李欣并没有问RMS，只是RMS在那里听不懂中文，听到又是Linux又是Windows的，问李欣怎么回事，李欣大致解释了一下，于是早就坐得不耐烦的RMS就借题发挥，开始攻击Windows，说你不能因为在Linux上面装一个Windows，就让Windows变得不evil了，大家都永远不应该用Windows（这都什么跟什么啊）。此时李欣认识到大势已去，只好赶快结束了事，估计算上RMS迟到的时间也才到45分钟吧。其实李欣的演讲也没涉及多少商业的东西，大多讲的是VMM、Xen和KVM的东西，就Intel的市场占有率来说，讲点Intel的虚拟化技术也不为过；但大家就认为他是在做广告。
>>>> 然后是那日本人。估计是徐继哲之前说了不少他如何如何牛的事，也因为他跟RMS关系持久且友好，更因为他在那儿用中文说了很多很玄的东西，大家都没怎么听懂吧，于是也没什么人反对，顺顺当当地讲完了。
>>>> 于是最后轮到RMS出场了。早看到大家称他老愤青了，心里有所准备。他一上来就说Proprietary
>>>> Software多么多么邪恶，然后开始推销他的free software理念，推销他的GNU系统，这些都不消我说了，谈一些根本问题。
>>>> 首先，既然他在李欣的演讲中打断他、支持下面学生的反对活动，还在那里反对他的Windows on
>>>> Linux理论，那他自己讲的时候，也应该随和一点的。但不，他从一开始，到最后，对于离场的人极为反感，多次提到这个问题，认为别人不尊重他；他又尊重过李欣了吗？演讲拖了几乎两倍的时间，把别人的计划都打乱了，是尊重别人吗？当徐继哲看他快讲完了，叫人拿展板进来，他却非常光火，叫他们把展板翻过去，否则就没人听他的演讲了（其实这时候他在说Free
>>>> Software in
>>>> Education的问题——更加理论化，本来就没人感兴趣）。还有当堂大嚼M&M的事情，动作多么夸张，让下面那么多人看着，一吃还吃了半个钟头，不会一口多吃点吗？我感觉这个是对我们下面观众的极大不尊重，再说严重点，就是在耍大牌。
>>>> 对于李欣，他就更没有尊重可言了。提问的时候李欣充当翻译，下面人说了一些无关痛痒的话，李欣就不翻了，就算给国家元首做翻译的人也经常这么做的，但RMS偏不，他想那个人叽哩咕噜说了那么多中文，你丫怎么一声不吭呢。于是打断人家说话，跟李欣说，没人能记那么多，你得让他停下来，你翻译好，再说下去。李欣说这我没啥好说的呀，RMS说他不是说了那么多了。于是李欣只好一句一句给他翻，RMS一再让他这么翻，他只好把那些应当忽略掉的话一句一句跟他说，还时不时得跑到下面去问提问的人，你刚说啥了。本来翻译就是一件很随意的事情，搞的下面那么多复旦学生好像都没学过口译，还要RMS教一样……可怜的李欣！
>>>> 然后关于GNU和Linux的问题。确实Linux只是一个内核，但GNU也不是一完整操作系统呀，也不过就几个小软件，还未必人家都在用呢。Gnome是GNU的吗？KDE是GNU的吗？Firefox是GNU的吗？Pidgin是GNU的吗？但他在介绍GNU的时候，就认为GNU是这个Free
>>>> OS的主体，Linux不过是一内核，所以你们说Linux是不对的（这个我同意），得说GNU/Linux（这个本身我不反对的），然后就GNU的发展历史，开始贬低Linux，疯狂贬低Linux，让我感觉Linux还不如GNU里面的某个小软件，感觉Linus是欺世大盗，你们说Linux而不说GNU/Linux就是大盗的同伙。凭什么啊？那也应该说Gnome/Firefox/Pidgin/GNU/Linux，也轮不到你GNU一家独大吧？就你一些GNU组件，就算Hurd测试成功了（且不说这个玩意儿多么失败），出来一个GNU操作系统，我看能有多少人用！本来想就这个问题对他提问的，但没抓到机会，算了，他心目中自我形象太高大，没别人生存的地方的。
>>>> 对于他的观点，我大致是这么理解的：他所说的Free
>>>> Software的Free，指的是Freedom，而这一概念很抽象，至少在中国目前的情况下是很难让大家接受的，也解释不清楚。要理解什么是Freedom，建议多看看西方电影，比如<<A
>>>> Brave
>>>> Heart>>之类。他的思想，就是那个思想，软件只是其中的一部分，于是他的整个理论都建立在Freedom之上，如果没有全盘的Freedom，包括经济的Freedom，政治的Freedom等，也就没有软件的Freedom。这也难怪他对XZ有这样的看法了；但他的思想是不现实的，在这样的思想下FSF能坚持到今天，出现这样的一个规模，实在是一个奇迹。在这里他还是比较收敛的，闭口不谈XZ的问题，而开始三句话不离骂Bush，至于一些私有软件厂商，以MS为主，更被他骂得体无完肤，似乎Gates根本就没有活着的意义了。如此激进的想法，我也是第一次遇到。后面提问的时候一些人问了一些比较实际的问题，比如对于现在这些现实的问题，我们怎么处理，他就开始说大道理，说你们根本就不该用Windows，所有人都不该用Windows，用了Windows你们就没有Freedom了，用Windows的人是傻子（至少我是这么感觉的），如此如此。人家一再追问实际情况下该怎么办，他就这么应付，再后来就出现了那个"一片混乱的情形了"。顺便还有一个问题，话筒传下去给提问的人了，提问的人也都很用力说了，我们也都能听见了，他还是在说听不见，而且语气不是"请说响点"的样子，而是像"你说啥，我听不见，听不见"的样子，没有一点起码的尊重。
>>>> 总的下来，我感觉他并不尊重别人，没有一个大人物应有的风度，人品一般偏低。理想有，但不切实际，这么完全追求Freedom的人物是任何一个好莱坞影片都不敢塑造的，更别提现实的人了。估计FSF里面也没人像他那么激进了，于是才有了我们现在所看到的这一切；要他一个人的话，早散了，曲高和寡嘛。他完全反对Proprietary
>>>> Software，认为一切公司的产品、我们购买的一切（前面说过，不限于Software）都应该是Free的，我们不该为Proprietary的公司工作，不该买他们的产品，不该用，看都不该看，于是一开始李欣用PPT的时候就注定了要受他的鄙视（虽然那个日本人也用PPT的）。对于我们来说，他的观点，听听可以（虽然有些接受不了），对于实际工作学习并没什么作用，听过算数，不听更好。
>>>>
>>>> 在 Monday 26 May 2008 03:53:29，Sha Li Jun 写道：
>>>>         
>>>>> Thomas X. Iverson 写道:
>>>>>           
>>>>>> 2008/5/25 Wu Yu <vestige.lug at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> 今天Intel的主讲人被摆了一道吧，在场观众对Intel的虚拟化技术不感兴趣
>>>>>>> 站起来公然反对，场面很尴尬。然后Intel主讲人又问Richard对虚拟机中
>>>>>>> 跑xp有什么感想（大概是这个问题，记不太清楚了），结果自然是被Richard
>>>>>>> 批了一顿。。。
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> 这个主讲人居然向RMS问这么有挑战性的问题。。。。。
>>>>>
>>>>> 其实我对虚拟化技术还是蛮感兴趣的。。。。。
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>
>>> --
>>> '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
>>> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
>>> '''http://zoomquiet.org
>>> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
>>> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
>>> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>
>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>>       
>> -- 
>> Notes:
>> 1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
>> 2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
>> Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
>> 3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
>> 4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
夏清然
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From colyli在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:01:59 2008
From: colyli在gmail.com (Coly Li)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:01:59 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
 =?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com><1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com><4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org><200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com><9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
Message-ID: <483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>



Jenny Yao wrote:
> 我一个星期 有四天都在陪RMS，的确他是一个太以自我为中心的人！ 而且有非常强的自我优越感！这是我们东方人很难接受的！
> 
> 第一天，我也非常反感而且气氛！ 但是仔细想来，我们还是应该更宽容些！ 原因有四：
> 
> 第一，东西方文化的差异，中国人特别注重理节，而且含蓄，通常想的和表现出来的是截然相反的！ 通常需要要两个大脑生活，一个在支配自己的思想，一个在支配自己的言行！所以中国人活的很累！而美国人只需要一个大脑足以支配自己的言行！所以活的很轻松！
> 
> 第二，RICHARD虽然有很多缺点，但是他的一生有一个无人能及的HIGHLIGHT！ 这一点已经足够了！只要他不做违法的事情，我们都可以谅解！天才通常都是有常人无法接受的怪癖，否则他很难成为天才！
> 
> 第三，多学习他身上的优点！他是如此的朴实，对工作是如此的狂热，任何时候，任何地方，他都会拿出他的小电脑，继续工作！我们谁能做到，要有天才的成就，是需要付出常人无法想象的代价！
> 
> 第四，多学习他的精神，永不放弃，不管阻力多大，从不言难，只是坚持做下去！
> 
> 
> 我一周前读过一本书 曾仕强的《中国式管理》 里面以 中国人、美国人和日本人为代表讲述了 不同文化的处世哲学！ 其实大家都没有错！ 只是我们需要在正确的环境下用正确的方法处理问题！
> 
> 这几天现实生活中就上演了这一幕！ RICHARD  AKIRA 和我们！
> 
> 
这是非常有建设性的文字。受教了！




> Jenny Yao
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alex Zhang" <cheungtifan at gmail.com>
> To: "Zoom. Quiet" <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Zeuux" <zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>; <shlug at googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe][shlug] 请今天去复旦骚包的发表图片和感̾
> 
> 
>> RMS自称为圣贤(I'm a saint),由此也可见一斑。他思想太激进，虽然我赞同他的部分观点。
>>
>> On 5/26/08, Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 2008/5/26 Wang Guoqin <wangguoqin1001 at gmail.com>:
>>>> 不好意思，今天回到学校才看到maillist里面那么多的讨论，在此也发表一些我参加活动的感想吧。
>>>> 老实说，参加了这个活动，我是比较失望的。早知道这样，还不如直接来参加shlug的活动呢（我听完zeuux准备来的，可发了一条短信半天没收到回复，以为你们都散了呢，就回家了。等收到回复，已经是半夜的事情了，没来成，很遗憾
>>>> :( ）
>>>> 早就料到RMS的演讲就是一说教，但万万没料到会这样。且不说这么说教如何，单就这次听讲座，感觉RMS的人品实在也不咋地，至少没达到一个FSF创始人应有的水平。
>>> 反方意见来了！很好，对于没有历史使命感的人，的确会有这种感觉的，
>>> 谁有储备的，释放吧...
>>>
>>>> 本来Intel的这个讲座是不错的，是我主要想听的内容，主讲人也不赖，但问题就在下面的那些人根本不想听他说。一开始李欣想让讨论活跃一些，谁知道就此开始了完全不着边际的讨论，下面的人都在问一些完全没有关系的问题，弄得李欣非常尴尬，又解释不清。PPT讲了半天，主要的内容都只能跳掉——懂的人不想听，不懂的人也不想听。本来他有三刻钟的，结果讲到半个钟头的时候，下面都坐不住了，开始轰他下台。李欣的处置还是不错的，挽回了一点局面，可是RMS在旁边还鼓动大家起来反对（至少我看着是这么个意思），结果下面某位据说是外地赶来的人（我没听清这个）便开始肆无忌惮的攻击，还在攻击Open
>>>> Source，结果一个类似学院领导的人物出来说话，才平息了这一场风波。至于在VMM上面装xp的问题，李欣并没有问RMS，只是RMS在那里听不懂中文，听到又是Linux又是Windows的，问李欣怎么回事，李欣大致解释了一下，于是早就坐得不耐烦的RMS就借题发挥，开始攻击Windows，说你不能因为在Linux上面装一个Windows，就让Windows变得不evil了，大家都永远不应该用Windows（这都什么跟什么啊）。此时李欣认识到大势已去，只好赶快结束了事，估计算上RMS迟到的时间也才到45分钟吧。其实李欣的演讲也没涉及多少商业的东西，大多讲的是VMM、Xen和KVM的东西，就Intel的市场占有率来说，讲点Intel的虚拟化技术也不为过；但大家就认为他是在做广告。
>>>> 然后是那日本人。估计是徐继哲之前说了不少他如何如何牛的事，也因为他跟RMS关系持久且友好，更因为他在那儿用中文说了很多很玄的东西，大家都没怎么听懂吧，于是也没什么人反对，顺顺当当地讲完了。
>>>> 于是最后轮到RMS出场了。早看到大家称他老愤青了，心里有所准备。他一上来就说Proprietary
>>>> Software多么多么邪恶，然后开始推销他的free software理念，推销他的GNU系统，这些都不消我说了，谈一些根本问题。
>>>> 首先，既然他在李欣的演讲中打断他、支持下面学生的反对活动，还在那里反对他的Windows on
>>>> Linux理论，那他自己讲的时候，也应该随和一点的。但不，他从一开始，到最后，对于离场的人极为反感，多次提到这个问题，认为别人不尊重他；他又尊重过李欣了吗？演讲拖了几乎两倍的时间，把别人的计划都打乱了，是尊重别人吗？当徐继哲看他快讲完了，叫人拿展板进来，他却非常光火，叫他们把展板翻过去，否则就没人听他的演讲了（其实这时候他在说Free
>>>> Software in
>>>> Education的问题——更加理论化，本来就没人感兴趣）。还有当堂大嚼M&M的事情，动作多么夸张，让下面那么多人看着，一吃还吃了半个钟头，不会一口多吃点吗？我感觉这个是对我们下面观众的极大不尊重，再说严重点，就是在耍大牌。
>>>> 对于李欣，他就更没有尊重可言了。提问的时候李欣充当翻译，下面人说了一些无关痛痒的话，李欣就不翻了，就算给国家元首做翻译的人也经常这么做的，但RMS偏不，他想那个人叽哩咕噜说了那么多中文，你丫怎么一声不吭呢。于是打断人家说话，跟李欣说，没人能记那么多，你得让他停下来，你翻译好，再说下去。李欣说这我没啥好说的呀，RMS说他不是说了那么多了。于是李欣只好一句一句给他翻，RMS一再让他这么翻，他只好把那些应当忽略掉的话一句一句跟他说，还时不时得跑到下面去问提问的人，你刚说啥了。本来翻译就是一件很随意的事情，搞的下面那么多复旦学生好像都没学过口译，还要RMS教一样……可怜的李欣！
>>>> 然后关于GNU和Linux的问题。确实Linux只是一个内核，但GNU也不是一完整操作系统呀，也不过就几个小软件，还未必人家都在用呢。Gnome是GNU的吗？KDE是GNU的吗？Firefox是GNU的吗？Pidgin是GNU的吗？但他在介绍GNU的时候，就认为GNU是这个Free
>>>> OS的主体，Linux不过是一内核，所以你们说Linux是不对的（这个我同意），得说GNU/Linux（这个本身我不反对的），然后就GNU的发展历史，开始贬低Linux，疯狂贬低Linux，让我感觉Linux还不如GNU里面的某个小软件，感觉Linus是欺世大盗，你们说Linux而不说GNU/Linux就是大盗的同伙。凭什么啊？那也应该说Gnome/Firefox/Pidgin/GNU/Linux，也轮不到你GNU一家独大吧？就你一些GNU组件，就算Hurd测试成功了（且不说这个玩意儿多么失败），出来一个GNU操作系统，我看能有多少人用！本来想就这个问题对他提问的，但没抓到机会，算了，他心目中自我形象太高大，没别人生存的地方的。
>>>> 对于他的观点，我大致是这么理解的：他所说的Free
>>>> Software的Free，指的是Freedom，而这一概念很抽象，至少在中国目前的情况下是很难让大家接受的，也解释不清楚。要理解什么是Freedom，建议多看看西方电影，比如<<A
>>>> Brave
>>>> Heart>>之类。他的思想，就是那个思想，软件只是其中的一部分，于是他的整个理论都建立在Freedom之上，如果没有全盘的Freedom，包括经济的Freedom，政治的Freedom等，也就没有软件的Freedom。这也难怪他对XZ有这样的看法了；但他的思想是不现实的，在这样的思想下FSF能坚持到今天，出现这样的一个规模，实在是一个奇迹。在这里他还是比较收敛的，闭口不谈XZ的问题，而开始三句话不离骂Bush，至于一些私有软件厂商，以MS为主，更被他骂得体无完肤，似乎Gates根本就没有活着的意义了。如此激进的想法，我也是第一次遇到。后面提问的时候一些人问了一些比较实际的问题，比如对于现在这些现实的问题，我们怎么处理，他就开始说大道理，说你们根本就不该用Windows，所有人都不该用Windows，用了Windows你们就没有Freedom了，用Windows的人是傻子��至少我是这么感觉的），如此如此。人家一再追问实际情况下该怎么办，他就这么应付，再后来就出现了那个"一片混乱的情形了"。顺便还有一个问题，话筒传下去给提问的人了，提问的人也都很用力说了，我们也都能听见了，他还是在说听不见，而且语气不是"请说响点"的样子，而是像"你说啥，我听不见，听不见"的样子，没有一点起码的尊重。
>>>> 总的下来，我感觉他并不尊重别人，没有一个大人物应有的风度，人品一般偏低。理想有，但不切实际，这么完全追求Freedom的人物是任何一个好莱坞影片都不敢塑造的，更别提现实的人了。估计FSF里面也没人像他那么激进了，于是才有了我们现在所看到的这一切；要他一个人的话，早散了，曲高和寡嘛。他完全反对Proprietary
>>>> Software，认为一切公司的产品、我们购买的一切（前面说过，不限于Software）都应该是Free的，我们不该为Proprietary的公司工作，不该买他们的产品，不该用，看都不该看，于是一开始李欣用PPT的时候就注定了要受他的鄙视（虽然那个日本人也用PPT的）。对于我们来说，他的观点，听听可以（虽然有些接受不了），对于实际工作学习并没什么作用，听过算数，不听更好。
>>>>
>>>> 在 Monday 26 May 2008 03:53:29，Sha Li Jun 写道：
>>>>> Thomas X. Iverson 写道:
>>>>>> 2008/5/25 Wu Yu <vestige.lug at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 今天Intel的主讲人被摆了一道吧，在场观众对Intel的虚拟化技术不感兴趣
>>>>>>> 站起来公然反对，场面很尴尬。然后Intel主讲人又问Richard对虚拟机中
>>>>>>> 跑xp有什么感想（大概是这个问题，记不太清楚了），结果自然是被Richard
>>>>>>> 批了一顿。。。
>>>>>>>
>>>>> 这个主讲人居然向RMS问这么有挑战性的问题。。。。。
>>>>>
>>>>> 其实我对虚拟化技术还是蛮感兴趣的。。。。。
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
>>> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
>>> '''http://zoomquiet.org
>>> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
>>> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
>>> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>
>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>
>> -- 
>> Notes:
>> 1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
>> 2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
>> Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
>> 3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
>> 4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org

-- 
Thanks

Coly

From zhoushuqun在gmail.com  Tue May 27 00:50:15 2008
From: zhoushuqun在gmail.com (Sutra Zhou)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:50:15 +0900
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
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In-Reply-To: <483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com><1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com><4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org><200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com><9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>

Garbled message you sent.

在 2008-5-27，上午2:01， Coly Li 写道：

>
>
> Jenny Yao wrote:
>> 我一个星期  
>> 有四天都在陪RMS，的确 
>> 他是一个太以自我为 
>> 中心的人！ 而 
>> 且有非常强的自我 
>> 优越感！这是我们东方 
>> 人很难接受的！
>>
>> 第一天，我 
>> 也非常反感而且气氛！  
>> 但是仔细想来，我 
>> 们还是应该更宽容些！  
>> 原因有四：
>>
>> 第一， 
>> 东西方文化的差异， 
>> ‰∏≠ÂõΩ‰∫∫ÁâπÂà 
>> ´Ê≥®ÈáçÁêÜËäÇÔºåËÄå‰∏îÂê 
>> ´ËìÑÔºåÈÄöÂ∏∏ÊÉ≥ÁöÑÂíåË 
>> ° 
>> ® 
>> Áé 
>> ∞Âá∫Êù•ÁöÑÊòØÊà™ÁÑ∂Áõ∏ÂèçÁöÑԺŠ 
>> ÈÄöÂ∏∏ÈúÄ˶Å˶ʼn∏§‰∏™Â§ßËÑëÁîüÊ 
>> ¥ªÔºå‰∏ĉ∏™Âú®ÊîØÈÖçËá™Â∑ 
>> ±ÁöÑÊÄùÊÉ≥Ôºå‰∏Ä 
>> ‰∏™Âú®ÊîØÈÖçËá™Â∑±ÁöÑË®ÄË 
>> °åÔºÅÊâĉª•‰∏≠ÂõΩ‰∫∫Ê¥ªÁöÑÂæàÁ 
>> ¥ØÔºÅËÄåÁæéÂõΩ‰∫∫Âè™ÈúÄ˶ʼn∏Ä 
>> ‰∏™Â§ßËÑëË∂≥‰ª•ÊîØÈÖçËá™Â∑ 
>> ±ÁöÑË®ÄË°åÔºÅÊâĉª•Ê 
>> ¥ªÁöÑÂæàËΩªÊùæÔºÅ
>>
>> 第 
>> ‰∫ 
>> åÔºåRICHARDËôΩÁÑ∂ÊúâÂæà§öÁº∫ÁÇπÔºå 
>> 但是他的一生有一 
>> 个无人能及的HIGHLIGHT！ 这 
>> 一点已经足够了！只要 
>> 他不做违法的事情，我 
>> ‰ª¨ÈÉΩÂè؉ª•Ë∞ÖËß 
>> £ÔºÅ§©ÊâçÈÄöÂ∏∏ÈÉΩÊòØÊúâÂ∏∏ 
>> ‰∫ 
>> ∫Êó†Ê≥ïÊé•ÂèóÁöÑÊÄ™ÁôñÔºåÂê¶Âàô 
>> 他很难成为天才！
>>
>> 第三，多学习他身上的 
>> ‰ºòÁÇπԺʼnªñÊòضÇÊ≠§ÁöÑÊú 
>> ¥ÂÆûÔºåÂØπÂ∑• 
>> 作是如此的狂热，任 
>> 何时候，任何地方， 
>> 他都会拿出 
>> 他的小电脑，继续工 
>> 作！我 
>> ‰ª 
>> ¨ 
>> Ë 
>> ∞ 
>> ÅËÉΩÂÅöÂà∞Ôºå˶ÅÊú⧩ÊâçÁöÑÊàêÂ∞ 
>> ±ÔºåÊòØÈúÄ˶ʼnªòÂá∫Â∏∏ 
>> 人无法想象的代价！
>>
>> 第四，多学习 
>> 他的精神，永不放弃， 
>> 不管阻力多大，从 
>> 不言难，只是坚持做 
>> 下去！
>>
>>
>> 我一周前读过一本书 曾 
>> 仕强的《中国式管理》  
>> 里面以 中国人、美国 
>> ‰∫∫ÂíåÊó•Êú¨‰∫∫‰∏∫‰ª£Ë 
>> °®ËÆ≤Ëø∞‰∫Ü ‰∏çÂêåÊñáÂåñÁöÑ处 
>> ‰∏ñÂì≤Â≠¶ÔºÅ ÂÖ∂ÂÆû§ßÂÆ∂ÈÉΩÊ≤ 
>> °ÊúâÈîôԺŠÂè™ÊòØÊàë 
>> 们需要在正确的环境 
>> ‰∏ãÁî®Ê≠£Á°ÆÁöÑÊñπÊ≥ï§ÑÁêÜÈóÆÈ 
>> ¢òÔºÅ
>>
>> 这几天现实生活中就 
>> 上演了这一幕！ RICHARD  AKIRA  
>> 和我们！
>>
>>
> ËøôÊòØÈùûÂ 
> ∏∏Êúâª∫ËÆæÊÄßÁöÑÊñáÂ≠ó„ÄÇÂèóÊïô 
> 了！
>
>
>
>
>> Jenny Yao
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alex Zhang" <cheungtifan在gmail.com>
>> To: "Zoom. Quiet" <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>
>> Cc: "Zeuux" <zeuux-universe在zeuux.org>; <shlug在googlegroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [zeuux-universe][shlug] 请 
>> ‰ªä§©ÂéªÂ§çÊó¶È™öÂåÖÁöÑÂèëË 
>> °®ÂõæÁâáÂíåÊÑüÃæ
>>
>>
>>> RMS自称为圣贤(I'm a saint),由此 
>>> 也可见一斑。 
>>> ‰ªñÊÄùÊÉ 
>>> ≥§™ÊøÄËøõÔºåËôΩÁÑ∂Êàë˵ûÂêå 
>>> 他的部分观点。
>>>
>>> On 5/26/08, Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 2008/5/26 Wang Guoqin <wangguoqin1001在gmail.com>:
>>>>> 不好意思， 
>>>>> ‰ªä§©ÂõûÂà∞Â≠¶Ê† 
>>>>> °ÊâçÁúãÂà∞maillistÈáåÈù¢ÈÇ£ 
>>>>> ‰πà§öÁöÑËÆ®ËÆ∫ÔºåÂú®Ê≠§‰πüÂèëË 
>>>>> °®‰∏ĉ∫õÊàëÂèÇÂä†Ê 
>>>>> ¥ªÂä®ÁöÑÊÑüÊÉ≥Âêß„ÄÇ
>>>>> ËÄÅÂÆûËØ¥ÔºåÂèÇÂ䆉∫ÜËøô‰∏™Ê 
>>>>> ¥ªÂä®ÔºåÊàëÊòØÊØîËæɧ 
>>>>> ±ÊúõÁöÑ„ÄÇÊó©Áü•ÈÅìËøôʆ∑ÔºåËøò 
>>>>> ‰∏ç¶ÇÁõ¥Êé•Êù•ÂèÇÂä†shlugÁöÑÊ 
>>>>> ¥ªÂä®Âë 
>>>>> ¢ 
>>>>> ÔºàÊàëÂê 
>>>>> ¨ÂÆåzeuuxÂáܧáÊù•ÁöÑÔºåÂèØÂèë‰∫Ü 
>>>>> ‰∏ÄÊù°Áü≠‰ø°Âç䧩Ê≤ 
>>>>> °Êî∂Âà∞Âõû§çԺ剪•‰∏∫‰Ω† 
>>>>> 们都散了呢，就回家 
>>>>> ‰∫ 
>>>>> Ü 
>>>>> „ÄÇÁ 
>>>>> ≠ 
>>>>> âÊî 
>>>>> ∂Âà∞Âõû§çÔºåÂ∑≤ÁªèÊòØÂçä§úÁöÑ 
>>>>> ‰∫ãÊÉÖ‰∫ÜÔºåÊ≤ 
>>>>> °Êù•ÊàêÔºåÂæàÈÅóÊÜæ
>>>>> :( ）
>>>>> 早就料到RMS的演讲就是 
>>>>> ‰∏ÄËØ¥ÊïôÔºå‰Ω܉∏á‰∏áÊ≤ 
>>>>> °ÊñôÂà∞‰ºöËøôʆ∑„Älj∏î‰∏çËØ 
>>>>> ¥Ëøô‰πàËØ¥Êïô¶ljΩïÔºåÂçïÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±Ëøôʨ°Âê¨ËÆ≤Â∫ßÔºåÊÑüËßâRMSÁöÑ 
>>>>> 人品实在也 
>>>>> 不咋地，至少没达到 
>>>>> ‰∏ĉ∏™FSFÂàõÂßã‰∫∫Â∫îÊúâÁöÑÊ∞ 
>>>>> ¥Âπ≥„ÄÇ
>>>> 反方意见来 
>>>> ‰∫ÜÔºÅÂæà•ΩÔºåÂØπ‰∫éÊ≤ 
>>>> °ÊúâÂéÜÂè≤‰ΩøÂëΩÊÑüÁöÑ 
>>>> 人，的确 
>>>> 会有这种感觉的，
>>>> 谁有储备的，释放吧...
>>>>
>>>>> 本来Intel的这个讲座是 
>>>>> 不错的，是我 
>>>>> 主要想听的内容，主讲 
>>>>> ‰∫∫‰πü‰∏ç˵ñÔºå‰ΩÜÈóÆÈ¢òÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±Âú®‰∏ãÈù¢ÁöÑÈÇ£‰∫õ‰∫∫ʆπÊú¨ 
>>>>> 不想听他说。 
>>>>> ‰∏ĺÄÂßãÊùéʨ£ÊÉ≥ËÆ©ËÆ®ËÆ∫Ê 
>>>>> ¥ªË∑ɉ∏ĉ∫õÔºåË∞ÅÁü•ÈÅìÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±Ê≠§ÂºÄÂßã‰∫ÜÂÆåÂÖ® 
>>>>> ‰∏çÁùÄËæπÈôÖÁöÑËÆ®ËÆ∫Ôºå‰∏ãÈù 
>>>>> ¢Áöщ∫∫ÈÉΩÂú®ÈóƉ∏Ä 
>>>>> ‰∫õÂÆåÂÖ®Ê≤°ÊúâÂÖ≥Á≥ªÁöÑÈóÆÈ 
>>>>> ¢òÔºåºÑÂæóÊùéʨ£ÈùûÂ∏∏Â∞ 
>>>>> ¥Â∞¨ÔºåÂèàËߣÈáä‰∏çÊ∏Ö„ÄÇPPTËÆ≤ 
>>>>> 了半天， 
>>>>> 主要的内容都只能跳掉——懂的人不想听，不懂的人也不想听。本来他有三刻钟的，结果讲到半个钟头的时候，下面都坐不住了，开始轰他下台。李欣的处置还是不错的，挽回了一点局面，可是RMS在旁边还鼓动大家起来反对（至少我看着是这么个意思），结果下面某位据说是外地赶来的人（我没听清这个）便开始肆无忌惮的攻击，还在攻击Open
>>>>> SourceÔºåÁªìÊûú‰∏ĉ∏™Á±ª‰ººÂ≠¶Èô 
>>>>> ¢È¢ÜÂغÁöщ∫∫Áâ©Âá∫Êù•ËØ 
>>>>> ¥ËØùÔºåÊâçÂπ≥ÊÅ؉∫ÜËøô‰∏ÄÂú∫È 
>>>>> £éÊ≥¢„ÄÇËá≥‰∫éÂú®VMM‰∏äÈù¢Ë 
>>>>> £ÖxpÁöÑÈóÆÈ¢òÔºåÊùéʨ£Âπ∂Ê≤ 
>>>>> °ÊúâÈóÆRMSÔºåÂè™ÊòØRMSÂú®ÈÇ£ÈáåÂê¨ 
>>>>> 不懂 
>>>>> 中文，听到又是Linux又是Win 
>>>>> dows的，问李欣怎么回 
>>>>> 事，李欣大致解释了一 
>>>>> 下，于是早就坐得 
>>>>> ‰∏çËÄêÁɶÁöÑRMSÂ∞±ÂÄüÈ 
>>>>> ¢òÂèëÊå•ÔºåºÄÂßãÊîªÂáªWindowsÔºåËØ¥ 
>>>>> ‰Ω†‰∏çËÉΩÂõ†‰∏∫Âú®Linux‰∏äÈù¢Ë 
>>>>> £Ö‰∏ĉ∏™WindowsÔºåÂ∞±ËÆ©WindowsÂèòÂæó 
>>>>> 不evil了，大家都永远 
>>>>> 不应该用Windows（这都什 
>>>>> 么跟什 
>>>>> ‰πàÂïäÔºâ„ÄÇÊ≠§Êó∂Êùéʨ 
>>>>> £ËƧËØÜÂà∞§ßÂäøÂ∑≤ÂéªÔºåÂè™Â•Ω˵∂Âø´ÁªìÊùü‰∫܉∫ãԺ剺∞ËÆ°ÁÆó‰∏äRMSËøüÂà∞ÁöÑÊó∂Èó¥‰πüÊâçÂà∞45ÂàÜÈíüÂêß„ÄÇÂÖ∂ÂÆûÊùéʨ£ÁöÑʺîËÆ≤‰πüÊ≤°Ê∂âÂèä§öÂ∞ëÂï܉∏öÁöщ∏úË•øÔºå§ß§öËÆ≤ÁöÑÊòØVMM„ÄÅXenÂíåKVMÁöщ∏úË•øÔºåÂ∞±IntelÁöÑÂ∏ÇÂú∫Âç†ÊúâÁéáÊù•ËØ¥ÔºåËÆ≤ÁÇπIntelÁöÑËôöÊãüÂåñÊäÄÊú؉πü‰∏ç‰∏∫ËøáÔºõ‰ΩܧßÂÆ∂Â∞±ËƧ‰∏∫‰ªñÊòØÂú®ÂÅöÂπøÂëä„ÄÇ
>>>>> ÁÑ∂ÂêéÊòØÈÇ£Êó•Êú¨‰∫∫„Äljº∞ËÆ 
>>>>> °ÊòØÂæêÁªßÂì≤‰πãÂâçËØ¥‰∫Ü 
>>>>> 不少他如何如何牛的 
>>>>> 事，也因为 
>>>>> 他跟RMS关系持久 
>>>>> ‰∏îÂèã•ΩÔºåÊõ¥Âõ†‰∏∫‰ªñÂú®ÈÇ 
>>>>> £ÂÑøÁ∏≠ÊñáËØ¥ 
>>>>> 了很多很玄的 
>>>>> 东西，大家都没怎 
>>>>> 么听懂吧，于是也没什 
>>>>> ‰πà‰∫∫ÂèçÂØπÔºåÈ°∫È 
>>>>> °∫ÂΩìÂΩìÂú∞ËÆ≤ÂÆå‰∫Ü„ÄÇ
>>>>> 于是最后轮到RMS出场 
>>>>> 了。早看到大家称 
>>>>> 他老愤青 
>>>>> 了，心里有所准备。他 
>>>>> 一上来就说Proprietary
>>>>> Software多么多 
>>>>> 么邪恶，然后开始推销 
>>>>> 他的free software理念，推销 
>>>>> 他的GNU系统，这些都 
>>>>> 不消我说了，谈一 
>>>>> 些根本问题。
>>>>> ȶñÂÖàÔºåÊó¢ÁÑ∂‰ªñÂú®Êùéʨ 
>>>>> £ÁöÑʺîËÆ≤‰∏≠ÊâìÊñ≠ 
>>>>> ‰ªñ„ÄÅÊîØÊåʼn∏ãÈù 
>>>>> ¢Â≠¶ÁîüÁöÑÂèçÂØπÊ 
>>>>> ¥ªÂä®ÔºåËøòÂú®ÈÇ£ÈáåÂèçÂØπ 
>>>>> 他的Windows on
>>>>> LinuxÁêÜËÆ∫ÔºåÈÇ£‰ªñËá™Â∑ 
>>>>> ±ËÆ≤ÁöÑÊó∂ÂÄôÔºå 
>>>>> 也应该随和一点的。 
>>>>> 但不，他从 
>>>>> 一开始，到最后，对 
>>>>> 于离场的人极 
>>>>> 为反感，多次提到这 
>>>>> 个问题，认为别人 
>>>>> 不尊重他； 
>>>>> 他又尊重过李欣 
>>>>> 了吗？演讲拖了几乎 
>>>>> ‰∏§ÂÄçÁöÑÊó∂Èó¥ÔºåÊääÂà 
>>>>> ´‰∫∫ÁöÑËÆ°ÂàíÈÉΩÊâì‰π± 
>>>>> ‰∫ÜÔºåÊòØÂ∞äÈáçÂà 
>>>>> ´‰∫∫ÂêóÔºüÂΩìÂæêÁªßÂì≤Áú㉪ñÂø 
>>>>> ´ËÆ≤ÂÆå‰∫ÜÔºåÂè´‰∫∫Êãø 
>>>>> ±ïÊùøËøõÊù•Ôºå‰ªñÂç¥ÈùûÂ∏∏ÂÖâÁÅ 
>>>>> ´ÔºåÂè´‰ªñ‰ª¨Êää 
>>>>> ±ïÊùøÁøªËøáÂéªÔºåÂê¶ÂàôÂ∞±Ê≤° 
>>>>> 人听他的演讲 
>>>>> ‰∫ÜÔºàÂÖ∂ÂÆûËøôÊó∂ÂÄô‰ªñÂú®ËØ 
>>>>> ¥Free
>>>>> Software in
>>>>> EducationÁöÑÈóÆÈ¢ò‚Äî‚ÄîÊõ 
>>>>> ¥Âä†ÁêÜËÆ∫ÂåñÔºåÊú¨Êù•Â∞±Ê≤° 
>>>>> ‰∫∫ÊÑüÂÖ¥Ë∂ 
>>>>> £Ôºâ„ÄÇËøòÊúâÂΩì†Ç§ßÂöºM&MÁöÑ 
>>>>> 事情，动作多 
>>>>> 么夸张，让下面那么多 
>>>>> 人看着，一吃还吃 
>>>>> 了半个钟头，不会 
>>>>> ‰∏ÄÂè 
>>>>> £Â§öÂêÉÁÇπÂêóÔºüÊàëÊÑüËßâËøô 
>>>>> 个是对我们下面观 
>>>>> 众的极大不尊重，再说 
>>>>> ‰∏•ÈáçÁÇπÔºåÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±ÊòØÂú®ËÄç§ßÁâå„ÄÇ
>>>>> ÂØπ‰∫éÊùéʨ£Ôºå‰ªñÂ∞±Êõ¥Ê≤ 
>>>>> °ÊúâÂ∞äÈáçÂèØ言 
>>>>> ‰∫Ü„ÄÇÊèêÈóÆÁöÑÊó∂ÂÄôÊùéʨ 
>>>>> £ÂÖÖÂΩìÁøªËØëÔºå‰∏ãÈù¢‰∫∫ËØ¥ 
>>>>> 了一 
>>>>> ‰∫õÊó†ÂÖ≥ÁóõÁóíÁöÑËØùÔºåÊùéʨ 
>>>>> £Â∞±‰∏çÁøª‰∫ÜÔºåÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±ÁÆóÁªôÂõΩÂÆ∂ÂÖÉȶñÂÅöÁøªËØëÁöÑ 
>>>>> 人也经常这么做的， 
>>>>> 但RMS偏不，他想那个 
>>>>> 人叽哩咕噜说了那么多 
>>>>> 中文，你丫怎么一声 
>>>>> 不吭呢。于是打断 
>>>>> ‰∫∫ÂÆ∂ËØ¥ËØùÔºåË∑üÊùéʨ£ËØ 
>>>>> ¥ÔºåÊ≤°‰∫∫ËÉΩËÆ∞ÈÇ£‰πà§öÔºå 
>>>>> 你得让他停下来， 
>>>>> 你翻译好，再说 
>>>>> ‰∏ãÂ骄ÄÇÊùéʨ£ËØ¥ËøôÊàëÊ≤ 
>>>>> °Âï•Â•ΩËØ¥ÁöÑÂëÄÔºåRMSËØ¥‰ªñ 
>>>>> 不是说了那么多了。 
>>>>> 于是李欣只好一句 
>>>>> 一句给他翻，RMS一再让 
>>>>> 他这么翻，他只好把那 
>>>>> 些应当忽略掉的话 
>>>>> ‰∏ÄÂ蕉∏ÄÂè•Ë∑ü‰ªñËØ 
>>>>> ¥ÔºåËøòÊó∂‰∏çÊó∂ÂæóË∑ëÂà∞ 
>>>>> 下面去问提问的人， 
>>>>> 你刚说啥 
>>>>> 了。本来翻译就是一 
>>>>> 件很随意的事情，搞的 
>>>>> 下面那 
>>>>> ‰πà§ö§çÊó¶Â≠¶Áîü•ΩÂÉèÈÉΩÊ≤ 
>>>>> °Â≠¶ËøáÂè£ËØëÔºåËøò˶ÅRMSÊïô 
>>>>> 一样……可怜的李欣！
>>>>> ÁÑ∂ÂêéÂÖ≥‰∫éGNUÂíåLinuxÁöÑÈóÆÈ 
>>>>> ¢ò„ÄÇÁ°ÆÂÆûLinuxÂè™Êò؉∏Ä 
>>>>> 个内核，但GNU也不是 
>>>>> 一完整操作系统呀，也 
>>>>> 不过就几个小软 
>>>>> 件，还未必 
>>>>> 人家都在用呢 
>>>>> 。Gnome是GNU的吗？KDE是GNU的吗？Firefox是GNU的吗？Pidgin是GNU的吗？ 
>>>>> ‰Ω܉ªñÂú®‰ªãÁªçGNUÁöÑÊó∂ÂÄôÔºåÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±ËƧ‰∏∫GNUÊòØËøô‰∏™Free
>>>>> OS的主体，Linux不过是 
>>>>> ‰∏ÄÂÜÖʆ∏ÔºåÊâĉª•‰Ω†‰ª¨ËØ 
>>>>> ¥LinuxÊò؉∏çÂØπÁöÑÔºàËøô 
>>>>> 个我同意），得说GNU/ 
>>>>> Linux（这个本身我 
>>>>> ‰∏çÂèçÂØπÁöÑÔºâÔºåÁÑ∂ÂêéÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±GNUÁöÑÂèë±ïÂéÜÂè≤ÔºåºÄÂßãË¥¨ 
>>>>> 低Linux，疯狂贬 
>>>>> 低Linux，让我感觉Linux还 
>>>>> 不如GNU里面的某个小软 
>>>>> 件，感觉Linus是欺 
>>>>> 世大盗，你们说Linux而 
>>>>> 不说GNU/Linux就是大盗的同 
>>>>> 伙。凭什么啊？那 
>>>>> 也应该说Gnome/Firefox/Pidgin/GNU/Linux， 
>>>>> 也轮不到你GNU 
>>>>> 一家独大吧？就你一 
>>>>> ‰∫õGNUÁªÑ‰ª∂ÔºåÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±ÁÆóHurdʵãËØïÊàêÂäü‰∫ÜÔºà‰∏î 
>>>>> ‰∏çËØ¥Ëøô‰∏™Áé©ÊÑèÂÑø§ö‰πৠ
>>>>> ±Ë¥•ÔºâÔºåÂá∫Êù•‰∏ĉ∏™GNUÊìç 
>>>>> 作系统，我看能有多少 
>>>>> 人用！本来想就这 
>>>>> 个问题对他提问的， 
>>>>> 但没抓到机会，算 
>>>>> ‰∫ÜԺ剪ñÂøÉÁõƉ∏≠Ëá™ÊàëÂΩ¢Ë± 
>>>>> °Â§™È´ò§ßÔºåÊ≤°Âà 
>>>>> ´‰∫∫ÁîüÂ≠òÁöÑÂú∞ÊñπÁöÑ„ÄÇ
>>>>> ÂØπ‰∫鉪ñÁöÑËßÇÁÇπÔºåÊàë§ßËá 
>>>>> ¥ÊòØËøô‰πàÁêÜËߣÁöÑÔºö‰ªñÊâÄËØ 
>>>>> ¥ÁöÑFree
>>>>> Software的Free，指的是Freedom，而这 
>>>>> 一概念很抽象，至少在 
>>>>> 中国目前的情况 
>>>>> ‰∏ 
>>>>> ãÊòØÂæàÈöæËƩ§ßÂÆ∂Êé•ÂèóÁöÑÔºå 
>>>>> 也解释不清楚。要理解 
>>>>> 什 
>>>>> ‰πàÊòØFreedomÔºåª 
>>>>> ∫ËÆƧöÁúãÁúãË•øÊñπÁîµÂΩ 
>>>>> ±ÔºåÊØî¶Ç<<A
>>>>> Brave
>>>>> Heart>>‰πãÁ±ª„ÄljªñÁöÑÊÄùÊÉ≥ÔºåÂ∞ 
>>>>> ±ÊòØÈÇ£‰∏™ÊÄùÊÉ≥ÔºåËΩØ 
>>>>> 件只是其中的 
>>>>> 一部分，于是他的整 
>>>>> 个理论都建立在Freedom之 
>>>>> ‰∏äÔºå¶ÇÊûúÊ≤ 
>>>>> °ÊúâÂÖ®ÁõòÁöÑFreedomÔºåÂåÖÊã¨ÁªèʵéÁ 
>>>>> öÑFreedomÔºåÊîøÊ≤ªÁöÑFreedomÁ≠âÔºå 
>>>>> 也就没有软 
>>>>> 件的Freedom。这也难怪 
>>>>> 他对XZ有这样的看法 
>>>>> 了；但他的思想是 
>>>>> 不现实的，在这样的思 
>>>>> 想下FSF能坚持到 
>>>>> 今天，出现这样的一 
>>>>> 个规模，实在是一 
>>>>> 个奇迹。在这里 
>>>>> ‰ªñËøòÊòØÊØîËæÉÊî∂ÊïõÁöÑÔºåÈó≠ 
>>>>> 裉∏çË∞àXZÁöÑÈóÆÈ¢òÔºåËÄåºÄÂßã 
>>>>> 三句话不离骂Bush，至 
>>>>> 于一些私有软 
>>>>> ‰ª∂ÂéÇÂïÜԺ剪•MS‰∏∫‰∏ªÔºåÊõ 
>>>>> ¥Ë¢´‰ªñÈ™ÇÂæó‰ΩìÊó†ÂÆåËǧԺå 
>>>>> ‰ºº‰πéGatesʆπÊú¨Â∞±Ê≤°ÊúâÊ 
>>>>> ¥ªÁùÄÁöÑÊÑè‰πâ 
>>>>> ‰∫Ü„ÄǶÇÊ≠§ÊøÄËøõÁöÑÊÉ≥Ê≥ïÔºåÊàë‰πüÊòØÁ¨¨‰∏Äʨ°ÈÅáÂà∞„ÄÇÂêéÈù¢ÊèêÈóÆÁöÑÊó∂ÂÄô‰∏ĉ∫õ‰∫∫ÈóƉ∫܉∏ĉ∫õÊØîËæÉÂÆûÈôÖÁöÑÈóÆÈ¢òÔºåÊØî¶ÇÂØπ‰∫éÁé∞Âú®Ëøô‰∫õÁé∞ÂÆûÁöÑÈóÆÈ¢òÔºåÊà뉪¨ÊÄé‰πà§ÑÁêÜԺ剪ñÂ∞±ÂºÄÂßãËإ§ßÈÅìÁêÜÔºåËØ¥‰Ω†‰ª¨Ê†πÊú¨Â∞±‰∏çËØ•Áî®WindowsÔºåÊâÄÊúâ‰∫∫ÈÉΩ‰∏çËØ•Áî®WindowsÔºåÁ∫ÜWindows‰Ω†‰ª¨Â∞±Ê≤°ÊúâFreedom‰∫ÜÔºåÁî®WindowsÁöщ∫∫ÊòØÂǪÂ≠êÔº
> àËá≥Â∞ëÊàëÊòØËøô 
> 么感觉的），如此如此。 
> 人家一再追问实际情况 
> 下该怎么办，他就这 
> 么应付，再后来就出现 
> ‰∫ÜÈÇ£‰∏™"‰∏ÄÁâáÊ∑∑‰π±ÁöÑÊÉÖÂΩ 
> ¢‰∫Ü"„ÄÇÈ°∫‰æøËøòÊúâ‰∏ĉ∏™ÈóÆÈ 
> ¢òÔºåËØùÁ≠퉺†‰∏ãÂéªÁªôÊèêÈóÆÁöÑ 
> 人了，提问的人 
> 也都很用力说了，我们 
> 也都能听见了， 
> 他还是在说听不见，而 
> ‰∏îËØ≠Ê∞î‰∏çÊòØ"ËØ∑ËØ 
> ¥ 
> 响点 
> "ÁöÑʆ∑Â≠êÔºåËÄåÊòØÂÉè"‰Ω†ËØ 
> ¥Âï•ÔºåÊàëÂꨉ∏çËßÅÔºåÂê¨ 
> 不见"的样子，没有 
> 一点起码的尊重。
>>>>> 总的下来，我感觉他并 
>>>>> 不尊重别人，没有一 
>>>>> ‰∏™Â§ß‰∫∫Áâ©Â∫îÊúâÁöÑÈ 
>>>>> £éÂ∫¶Ôºå‰∫∫Âìʼn∏ÄËà¨ÂÅè 
>>>>> 低。理想有，但 
>>>>> ‰∏çÂàáÂÆûÈôÖÔºåËøô‰πàÂÆåÂÖ®ËøΩÊ 
>>>>> ±ÇFreedomÁöщ∫∫Áâ©Êò؉ªª‰Ωï‰∏Ä 
>>>>> ‰∏™Â•ΩËé±ÂùûÂΩ±ÁâáÈÉΩ‰∏çÊï¢Â 
>>>>> °ëÈĆÁöÑÔºåÊõ¥Âà´ÊèêÁé∞ÂÆûÁöÑ 
>>>>> ‰∫∫‰∫Ü„Äljº∞ËÆ°FSFÈáåÈù¢‰πüÊ≤ 
>>>>> °‰∫∫ÂÉ艪ñÈÇ£‰πàÊøÄËøõ‰∫ÜÔºå 
>>>>> 于是才有了我 
>>>>> 们现在所看到的这 
>>>>> 一切；要他一个 
>>>>> ‰∫∫ÁöÑËØùÔºåÊó©Ê∫ÜÔºåÊõ≤È 
>>>>> ´òÂíåÂØ°Âòõ„ÄÇ 
>>>>> 他完全反对Proprietary
>>>>> Software，认为一切公司的 
>>>>> 产品、我们购买的 
>>>>> 一切（前面说过，不限 
>>>>> 于Software）都应该是Free的，我们不该为Proprietary的公司工作，不该买他们的产品，不该用，看都不该看，于是一开始李欣用PPT的时候就注定了要受他的鄙视（虽然那个日本人也用PPT的）。对于我们来说，他的观点，听听可以（虽然有些接受不了），对于实际工作学习并没什么作用，听过算数，不听更好。
>>>>>
>>>>> 在 Monday 26 May 2008 03:53:29，Sha Li Jun  
>>>>> ÂÜôÈÅìÔºö
>>>>>> Thomas X. Iverson ÂÜôÈÅì:
>>>>>>> 2008/5/25 Wu Yu <vestige.lug在gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 今天Intel的主讲人被摆 
>>>>>>>> 了一道吧，在场观 
>>>>>>>> 众对Intel的虚拟化技术 
>>>>>>>> 不感兴趣
>>>>>>>> Á´ô˵∑Êù•ÂÖ¨ÁÑ∂ÂèçÂØπÔºåÂú∫Èù 
>>>>>>>> ¢ÂæàÂ∞¥Â∞¨„ÄÇÁÑ∂ÂêéIntel‰∏ªËÆ≤ 
>>>>>>>> 人又问Richard对虚拟机中
>>>>>>>> 跑xp有什 
>>>>>>>> 么感想（大概是这 
>>>>>>>> 个问题，记不太清楚 
>>>>>>>> ‰∫ÜÔºâÔºåÁªìÊûúËá™ÁÑ∂ÊòØË¢ 
>>>>>>>> ´Richard
>>>>>>>> 批了一顿。。。
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ëøô‰∏™‰∏ªËÆ≤‰∫∫ 
>>>>>> ±ÖÁÑ∂ÂêëRMSÈóÆËøô 
>>>>>> ‰πàÊúâÊåëÊàòÊÄßÁöÑÈóÆÈ 
>>>>>> ¢ò„ÄÇ„ÄÇ„ÄÇ„ÄÇ„ÄÇ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ÂÖ 
>>>>>> ∂ 
>>>>>> ÂÆûÊàëÂØπËôöÊãüÂåñÊäÄÊúØËøòÊòØËõÆÊÑüÂÖ 
>>>>>> ¥Ë∂£ÁöÑ„ÄÇ„ÄÇ„ÄÇ„ÄÇ„ÄÇ
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> '''过程改进乃是催生可 
>>>> 促生靠谱的人的组织!
>>>> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
>>>> '''http://zoomquiet.org
>>>> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
>>>> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
>>>> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>>> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
>>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>>
>>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Notes:
>>> 1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
>>> 2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
>>> Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
>>> 3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing  
>>> system.
>>> 4. CheungTiFan在gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check  
>>> everyday.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>
>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>
> -- 
> Thanks
>
> Coly
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org

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From colyli在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:10:00 2008
From: colyli在gmail.com (Coly Li)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:10:00 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
 =?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com><1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com><4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org><200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com><9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>



Sutra Zhou wrote:
> Garbled message you sent.
oops, something wrong in encoding. I use utf-8 to reply, what's yours ?

> 
> 在 2008-5-27，上午2:01， Coly Li 写道：
> 
>>
>>
>> Jenny Yao wrote:
>>> 我一个星期
>>> 有四天都在陪RMS，的确他是一个太以自我为中心的人！
>>> 而且有非常强的自我优越感！这是我们东方人很难接受的！
［snip］

-- 
Thanks

Coly

From zhoushuqun在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:02:29 2008
From: zhoushuqun在gmail.com (Sutra Zhou)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 02:02:29 +0900
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
 =?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com><1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com><4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org><200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com><9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>

I try to decode it using UTF-8, GBK...in Apple mail 3.0, all are failed.
But when I using gmail in browser, works OK.
Maybe there's some bug with my client.

在 2008-5-27，上午2:10， Coly Li 写道：

>
>
> Sutra Zhou wrote:
>> Garbled message you sent.
> oops, something wrong in encoding. I use utf-8 to reply, what's  
> yours ?
>
>>
>> 在 2008-5-27，上午2:01， Coly Li 写道：
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jenny Yao wrote:
>>>> 我一个星期
>>>> 有四天都在陪RMS，的确 
>>>> 他是一个太以自我为 
>>>> 中心的人！
>>>> 而且有非常强的自我 
>>>> 优越感！这是我们东方 
>>>> 人很难接受的！
> ［snip］
>
> -- 
> Thanks
>
> Coly

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From jhuangjiahua在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:19:52 2008
From: jhuangjiahua在gmail.com (Jiahua Huang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:19:52 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org>
	<200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Sutra Zhou <zhoushuqun在gmail.com> wrote:
> I try to decode it using UTF-8, GBK...in Apple mail 3.0, all are failed.
> But when I using gmail in browser, works OK.
> Maybe there's some bug with my client.
>

是的， 是 Apple Mail 的 bug，
colyli 的邮件是 utf8 纯文本内容
(Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit )

而 Apple Mail 对超过 7bit 内容只接受 base64 编码。
(Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64)

Apple Mail 的字符编码都是指 base64 解码后的字符串编码。

注意这儿说的 纯文本 不是常说的"纯文本邮件"，

colyli 的邮件是

--===============5050039009370188909==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Jenny Yao wrote:
> 我一个星期 有四天都在陪RMS，的确他是一个太以自我为中心的人！ 而且有非常强的自我优越感！这是我们东方人很难接受的！
> 第一天，我也非常反感而且气氛！ 但是仔细想来，我们还是应该更宽容些！ 原因有四：


---
而 apple mail 只接受类似
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

VGhvbWFzIFguIEl2ZXJzb24g5YaZ6YGTOgo+IDIwMDgvNS8yNSBXdSBZdSA8dmVzdGlnZS5s
dWdAZ21haWwuY29tPjoKPiAgIAo+PiDku4rlpKlJbnRlbOeahOS4u+iusuS6uuiiq+aRhuS6
huS4gOmBk+WQp++8jOWcqOWcuuinguS8l+WvuUludGVs55qE6Jma5ouf5YyW5oqA5pyv5LiN


里边的 utf8 内容是 Transfer-Encoding 为 base64 的

From zhoushuqun在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:22:28 2008
From: zhoushuqun在gmail.com (Sutra Zhou)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 02:22:28 +0900
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
 =?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org>
	<200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>

лл���ô�֪����ôpatch����

� 2008-5-27����2:19�� Jiahua Huang ��

> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Sutra Zhou <zhoushuqun在gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>> I try to decode it using UTF-8, GBK...in Apple mail 3.0, all are  
>> failed.
>> But when I using gmail in browser, works OK.
>> Maybe there's some bug with my client.
>>
>
> ��ģ� � Apple Mail ��bug��
> colyli ��ʼ�� utf8 �������
> (Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit )
>
> ��le Mail �Գ��� ��ֻ���base64 ����
> (Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64)
>
> Apple Mail ��ַ����ָ base64 ����ַ����
>
> ע���� ����� �����˵����������"��
>
> colyli ��ʼ��
>
> --===============5050039009370188909==
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> Jenny Yao wrote:
>> �һ����������RMS������� 
>> һ����������ˣ� ���dz�ǿ 
>> �������У������������ѽ�ܵģ�
>> �������Ҳ�dz����ж��գ� ���� 
>> ϸ���������Ӧ�ø���� ԭ�����
>
>
> ---
> ��le mail ֻ����
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
>
> VGhvbWFzIFguIEl2ZXJzb24g5YaZ6YGTOgo 
> +IDIwMDgvNS8yNSBXdSBZdSA8dmVzdGlnZS5s
> dWdAZ21haWwuY29tPjoKPiAgIAo+PiDku4rlpKlJbnRlbOeahOS4u+iusuS6uuiiq 
> +aRhuS6
> huS4gOmBk+WQp++8jOWcqOWcuuinguS8l 
> +WvuUludGVs55qE6Jma5ouf5YyW5oqA5pyv5LiN
>
>
> ��ߵ�utf8 ��� Transfer-Encoding Ϊ base64 ��
-------------- 下一部分 --------------
һ��L���������RL: http://www.zeuux.org/pipermail/zeuux-universe/attachments/20080527/285a1ba5/attachment.html 

From jhuangjiahua在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:29:11 2008
From: jhuangjiahua在gmail.com (Jiahua Huang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:29:11 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eac7fba60805261029u7d6cc2c8lb3b71b8975b23b53@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Sutra Zhou <zhoushuqun在gmail.com>:
> 谢谢，那么你知道有什么patch不？

大概只能给水果公司的客服打电话了。

thunderbird, evolution 之流虽然处理编码没问题，
但是在 OS X 上都没 Apple Mail 炫目。

不过，反正超过九成的邮件都是 base64 编码，
这 bug 也不会对你影响太多，
无非是看 colyli 的邮件时候开下 gmal.com ……
或者在 Apple Mail 点 查看原始信息

From jhuangjiahua在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:32:30 2008
From: jhuangjiahua在gmail.com (Jiahua Huang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:32:30 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Sutra Zhou <zhoushuqun在gmail.com>:
> 谢谢，那么你知道有什么patch不？
>

离题下，水果公司的 Apple Mail 是不支持纯文本，
而 RMS 的 emacs 处理邮件是默认不支持 base64,

前些时候 RMS 的部下洪峰等在另一个列表里抱怨用
emacs 没法阅读大家的中文邮件，

From jhuangjiahua在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:34:15 2008
From: jhuangjiahua在gmail.com (Jiahua Huang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:34:15 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSBSZTog6K+35LuK5aSp5Y675aSN?=
	=?utf-8?b?5pem6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <8eeef57f0805261028h750b2d0cicb553b74d6273420@mail.gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com>
	<4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org>
	<200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
	<5ffa2caa0805260814u4aea58f6s7602f04336f199da@mail.gmail.com>
	<8eeef57f0805261028h750b2d0cicb553b74d6273420@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eac7fba60805261034t1d999fcel255e749dd5d1c8ce@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Yongwei Wu <wuyongwei在gmail.com>:
> 再纠正一把自己。前面"纠正Zoom"是搞错了：少数了一个回复层次。呵呵。
>

赞你的翻译


btw: 这个邮件表明 gmail 在线索和会话组织上对 RFC 及用户体验都有所妥协。

From qingran在zeuux.org  Tue May 27 01:38:59 2008
From: qingran在zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:38:59 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
 =?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>

Jiahua Huang wrote:
> 2008/5/27 Sutra Zhou <zhoushuqun at gmail.com>:
>   
>> 谢谢，那么你知道有什么patch不？
>>
>>     
>
> 离题下，水果公司的 Apple Mail 是不支持纯文本，
>   
> 而 RMS 的 emacs 处理邮件是默认不支持 base64,
>   
GNU Emacs道理上是不该有这个问题啊，这对RFC中关于邮件编码的规范太漠视了:(

BTW, 感觉Thunderbird对各种符合RFC规范的邮件编码的支持好一点。
> 前些时候 RMS 的部下洪峰等在另一个列表里抱怨用
> emacs 没法阅读大家的中文邮件，
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
夏清然
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From jhuangjiahua在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:43:48 2008
From: jhuangjiahua在gmail.com (Jiahua Huang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:43:48 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5Lit5Zu96ZO26KGM572R5LiK6ZO25LiK5paw?=
	=?utf-8?b?54mI5ZyoTGludXjkuIrkuI3lj6/kvb/nlKg=?=
In-Reply-To: <483A566C.2080204@realss.com>
References: <4838B569.5000003@realss.com>
	<eac7fba60805250518i3e8fa4afv5003ee21aa86ef83@mail.gmail.com>
	<483A1AA4.50705@realss.com> <483A566C.2080204@realss.com>
Message-ID: <eac7fba60805261043s69e3a9c8wa59541b864f26a76@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/26 Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu在realss.com>:
>>
> 已经测试Opera可以的（在powerpc上）。webkit/khtml没试，因为没有K系列的东
> 西（Gentoo上如果要装起来也很费时）。谁可以帮助测试一下？
>

没有中国银行卡，要不你的账号密码借来试试？  :D

Webkit 有 Gtk 和 Qt 版本可用

Ubuntu 的话，
在 libwebkitgtk1d 里带了
/usr/lib/WebKit/GtkLauncher
在 libwebkit-1.0-1 带了
/usr/lib/webkit-1.0/libexec/GtkLauncher
可以直接执行
都是 WebkitGtk 的 Browser Demo


在 qt4-demos 带了
/usr/lib/qt4/demos/browser/browser
是 Qt4 Browser Demo

还有个 arora 也是 QtWebkit Browser


Webkit 的 OpenGL 版本应该没进入 Gentoo

From jhuangjiahua在gmail.com  Tue May 27 01:48:35 2008
From: jhuangjiahua在gmail.com (Jiahua Huang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:48:35 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>
	<483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <eac7fba60805261048t62899b64q89b686f841fea2ff@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Xia Qingran <qingran在zeuux.org>:
> GNU Emacs道理上是不该有这个问题啊，这对RFC中关于邮件编码的规范太漠视了:(
>

Emacs 可以支持 base64, 洪峰不会弄

> BTW, 感觉 Thunderbird 对各种符合 RFC 规范的邮件编码的支持好一点。
>

其实雷鸟也是对现实有妥协的， 如附件中文名，
默认(可以修改)最符合规范的怕是 mutt

From jennyyao在zeuux.org  Tue May 27 07:07:24 2008
From: jennyyao在zeuux.org (Jenny Yao)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 07:07:24 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com><1c8b6e720805241621o217b7dc4s9017537faa2e509@mail.gmail.com><4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org><200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com><9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009601c8bf85$42bc4750$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>

Sorry, I use utf-8 to reply on my apple. I don't know how to deal with such question of garbled because I am only a researcher and designer in the auto race track. So I have to write it in my poor english.

我一个星期 有四天都在陪RMS，的确他是一个太以自我为中心的人！ 而且有非常强的自我优越感！这是我们东方人很难接受的！
> I  accompanied RMS four days in Shanghai. Indeed, he is an extreme self-centered man and he has the strong superiority complex! As the oriental, it is difficult to accept them.
> 第一天，我也非常反感而且气氛！ 但是仔细想来，我们还是应该更宽容些！ 原因有四：
I have an antipathy to his action in the first day.However,I think we should be more tolerant to RMS when I thought over it at night. There are four  reasons:

> 第一，东西方文化的差异，中国人特别注重理节，而且含蓄，通常想的和表现出来的是截然相反的！ 通常需要要两个大脑生活，一个在支配自己的思想，一个在支配自己的言行！所以中国人活的很累！而美国人只需要一个大脑足以支配自己的言行！所以活的很轻松！
> First, it due to the cultural differences between east and west. Chinese usually  are implicative and especially pay attention to etiquette. normally, it is just poles apart between what they thinked and what they done. Chinese usually need two cerebras to live. one is used to control their idea, the other is used to control their woods and deeds. So we lived very tired. However, Amarican only need one cerebra, it is enough to control themselves at the same time. So they lived very easy.

> 第二，RICHARD虽然有很多缺点，但是他的一生有一个无人能及的HIGHLIGHT！ 这一点已经足够了！只要他不做违法的事情，我们都可以谅解！天才通常都是有常人无法接受的怪癖，否则他很难成为天才！
Second, RMS has a highlight that we could not attain in our life even though he has a little shortcomings. the highlight is enough for us to understand him if only he don't violate the law. Talent usually has some mannerism that the ordinary person could not receive, otherwise, it is difficult to become the talent.

> 
> 第三，多学习他身上的优点！他是如此的朴实，对工作是如此的狂热，任何时候，任何地方，他都会拿出他的小电脑，继续工作！我们谁能做到，要有天才的成就，是需要付出常人无法想象的代价！
Third, We should study his strongpoint much more. He is so simple to living and so crazy to work. He can work in anytime and anyplace. it is very difficult to us to do so. Talent alway pays out a cost that we are unthinkable!
> 
> 第四，多学习他的精神，永不放弃，不管阻力多大，从不言难，只是坚持做下去！
Forth,  We should study his inflexible. He never said difficult no matter how  terrible is the resistance. Just do it!
> 
> 
> 我一周前读过一本书 曾仕强的《中国式管理》 里面以 中国人、美国人和日本人为代表讲述了 不同文化的处世哲学！ 其实大家都没有错！ 只是我们需要在正确的环境下用正确的方法处理问题！
I just read a book named 《中国式管理》. the writer,renshiqiang who is a famous author. he  give a description for three kinds of philosophy to deal with same problem because of the different culture, Chinese, American and Japanese.  In fact, we are all right! I think that we only should deal with a problem with the right method in the right circumstance.
> 这几天现实生活中就上演了这一幕！ RICHARD  AKIRA 和我们！

I can not belive that Such things occured in my life after I read that book. they are RMS, Akira and us.



Best Regards,

Sincerely,

Jenny Yao

From cheungtifan在gmail.com  Tue May 27 08:13:43 2008
From: cheungtifan在gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 00:43:43 +0030
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <009601c8bf85$42bc4750$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org>
	<200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<009601c8bf85$42bc4750$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805261713vb531a98v80e2bb28ae3df829@mail.gmail.com>

but why don't you use yellow dog linux?
apple is always driving me crazy, for example, you could change the
passwd of user without logging in... (znabcime, help, then u'll be
able to change)
and the one-key based mouse. also in gui we cannot touch the system
files without terminal. (if anyone could, pls tell me)
in one word, the fruit company selling computers thought their users
shouldnot touch the system, all their user do is using applications.
Alex

On 5/26/08, Jenny Yao <jennyyao at zeuux.org> wrote:
> Sorry, I use utf-8 to reply on my apple. I don't know how to deal with such
> question of garbled because I am only a researcher and designer in the auto
> race track. So I have to write it in my poor english.
>
> 我一个星期 有四天都在陪RMS，的确他是一个太以自我为中心的人！ 而且有非常强的自我优越感！这是我们东方人很难接受的！
>> I  accompanied RMS four days in Shanghai. Indeed, he is an extreme
>> self-centered man and he has the strong superiority complex! As the
>> oriental, it is difficult to accept them.
>> 第一天，我也非常反感而且气氛！ 但是仔细想来，我们还是应该更宽容些！ 原因有四：
> I have an antipathy to his action in the first day.However,I think we should
> be more tolerant to RMS when I thought over it at night. There are four
> reasons:
>
>> 第一，东西方文化的差异，中国人特别注重理节，而且含蓄，通常想的和表现出来的是截然相反的！
>> 通常需要要两个大脑生活，一个在支配自己的思想，一个在支配自己的言行！所以中国人活的很累！而美国人只需要一个大脑足以支配自己的言行！所以活的很轻松！
>> First, it due to the cultural differences between east and west. Chinese
>> usually  are implicative and especially pay attention to etiquette.
>> normally, it is just poles apart between what they thinked and what they
>> done. Chinese usually need two cerebras to live. one is used to control
>> their idea, the other is used to control their woods and deeds. So we
>> lived very tired. However, Amarican only need one cerebra, it is enough to
>> control themselves at the same time. So they lived very easy.
>
>> 第二，RICHARD虽然有很多缺点，但是他的一生有一个无人能及的HIGHLIGHT！
>> 这一点已经足够了！只要他不做违法的事情，我们都可以谅解！天才通常都是有常人无法接受的怪癖，否则他很难成为天才！
> Second, RMS has a highlight that we could not attain in our life even though
> he has a little shortcomings. the highlight is enough for us to understand
> him if only he don't violate the law. Talent usually has some mannerism that
> the ordinary person could not receive, otherwise, it is difficult to become
> the talent.
>
>>
>> 第三，多学习他身上的优点！他是如此的朴实，对工作是如此的狂热，任何时候，任何地方，他都会拿出他的小电脑，继续工作！我们谁能做到，要有天才的成就，是需要付出常人无法想象的代价！
> Third, We should study his strongpoint much more. He is so simple to living
> and so crazy to work. He can work in anytime and anyplace. it is very
> difficult to us to do so. Talent alway pays out a cost that we are
> unthinkable!
>>
>> 第四，多学习他的精神，永不放弃，不管阻力多大，从不言难，只是坚持做下去！
> Forth,  We should study his inflexible. He never said difficult no matter
> how  terrible is the resistance. Just do it!
>>
>>
>> 我一周前读过一本书 曾仕强的《中国式管理》 里面以 中国人、美国人和日本人为代表讲述了 不同文化的处世哲学！ 其实大家都没有错！
>> 只是我们需要在正确的环境下用正确的方法处理问题！
> I just read a book named 《中国式管理》. the writer,renshiqiang who is a famous
> author. he  give a description for three kinds of philosophy to deal with
> same problem because of the different culture, Chinese, American and
> Japanese.  In fact, we are all right! I think that we only should deal with
> a problem with the right method in the right circumstance.
>> 这几天现实生活中就上演了这一幕！ RICHARD  AKIRA 和我们！
>
> I can not belive that Such things occured in my life after I read that book.
> they are RMS, Akira and us.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jenny Yao
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Tue May 27 11:03:37 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:03:37 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] [shlug] Bazaar Becomes a GNU Project
In-Reply-To: <1064603c0805261957i36c8d5fbnfcc885f6b70c68e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1064603c0805261957i36c8d5fbnfcc885f6b70c68e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805262003n54094ad8y2acf4c41053f91b0@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Cheng <jimcheng在gmail.com>:
>
> http://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/2008052202126NWLLDV
>
!!! Ubuntu 够彻底的哪！觉悟！



-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From fwolfcn在gmail.com  Tue May 27 11:11:52 2008
From: fwolfcn在gmail.com (Fwolf)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:11:52 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <eac7fba60805261048t62899b64q89b686f841fea2ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>
	<483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>
	<eac7fba60805261048t62899b64q89b686f841fea2ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080527031152.GA22208@fwolf>

是的，mutt的附件文件名编码格式是最严格的，
发过去gmail都不认（原因是gmail不兼容）
所以发中文附件一般我都是直接到gmail里面发，
要不别人收到后就大叫“乱码。。。。”

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 01:48:35AM +0800, Jiahua Huang wrote:
> 2008/5/27 Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org>:
> > GNU Emacs道理上是不该有这个问题啊，这对RFC中关于邮件编码的规范太漠视了:(
> >
> 
> Emacs 可以支持 base64, 洪峰不会弄
> 
> > BTW, 感觉 Thunderbird 对各种符合 RFC 规范的邮件编码的支持好一点。
> >
> 
> 其实雷鸟也是对现实有妥协的， 如附件中文名，
> 默认(可以修改)最符合规范的怕是 mutt
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
-- 
http://www.fwolf.com/
师："请用母牛造一个句！"生："一头母牛！""好！能不能再造一个？""又一头母牛！"
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From hamo.by在gmail.com  Tue May 27 11:42:04 2008
From: hamo.by在gmail.com (Hamo)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:42:04 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?gb2312?b?W09UXbDL2NTSu8/Co6y087zStrzTw8qyw7Q=?=
	=?gb2312?b?sb6xvrCho78=?=
Message-ID: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>

最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。

-- 
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

Name:白杨
Nick Name:Hamo
Website:http://hamobai.com
Blog: http://blog.hamobai.com

From hongqn在gmail.com  Tue May 27 11:44:06 2008
From: hongqn在gmail.com (Qiangning Hong)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:44:06 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?gb2312?b?W0NQeVVHOjUyNTk4XSBbT1RdsMvY1NK7z8I=?=
	=?gb2312?b?o6y087zStrzTw8qyw7SxvrG+sKGjvw==?=
In-Reply-To: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b64ef0ce0805262044k260251d6h7b469e49f803574@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Hamo <hamo.by在gmail.com>:
> 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。

MacBook Pro

-- 
Qiangning Hong
http://www.douban.com/people/hongqn/

From harryl.byread在gmail.com  Tue May 27 11:50:04 2008
From: harryl.byread在gmail.com (Harry Li)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:50:04 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W0NQeVVHOjUyNTk4XSBbT1Rd5YWr5Y2m5LiA?=
	=?utf-8?b?5LiL77yM5aSn5a626YO955So5LuA5LmI5pys5pys5ZWK77yf?=
In-Reply-To: <b64ef0ce0805262044k260251d6h7b469e49f803574@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<b64ef0ce0805262044k260251d6h7b469e49f803574@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ce77ec000805262050i5d083fbbh46427b5a954ac8f6@mail.gmail.com>

我下一个本准备买MacBookPro。
现在是3年前买的Dell M70，对Linux等开源东西支持还行，NV显卡，Broadcom
GbitEthernet（tg3驱动），ipw2200 wifi，csr bluetooth。

2008/5/27 Qiangning Hong <hongqn at gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/27 Hamo <hamo.by at gmail.com>:
>> 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。
>
> MacBook Pro
>
> --
> Qiangning Hong
> http://www.douban.com/people/hongqn/
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org



-- 
Best Regards
Harry Li

From bill在zeuux.org  Tue May 27 12:01:16 2008
From: bill在zeuux.org (Bill Xu)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 12:01:16 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?5ZOy5oCd5rKZ6b6Z77yN56ysNuacn++8jTIw?=
 =?utf-8?b?MDjlubQ25pyIN+aXpe+8jUxWU+S7i+e7jQ==?=
Message-ID: <483B878C.1060805@zeuux.org>


http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-salon.cn.html#6th


      哲思沙龙－第6期－2008年6月7日－新浪网

    * 主题：LVS
    * 嘉宾：章文嵩
          o 章文嵩博士是Linux内核的开发者，著名的Linux集群项目－－LVS
            （Linux Virtual Server）
            <http://www.linuxvirtualserver.org/>的创始人和主要开发人员。
            他目前是TelTel的首席科学家，从事大规模分布式的通信系统的设计
            和开发。他一直致力于自由软件的开发，并以此为乐。
    * 关键字：LVS load-balance Linux
    * 演示文档：下载 <http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-salon.cn.html#>
    * 礼品：OpenSuse、OpenSolaris光盘。
    * 时间：2008年6月7日，星期六，14：00－17：00。
    * 地点：北京市 海淀区 理想国际大厦 15层 培训教室，参见地图
      <http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/MapSinaBus>。*请大家先到20层前
      台登记，然后到15层培训教室。*
    * 报名：哲思技术交流是开放的，任何感兴趣的朋友都可以自由参加。希望大
      家能够准时到达会场。
    * 知识准备：
          o 对Linux和TCP/IP有一定的了解。
          o 了解负载均衡技术使用的场景和相关技术。
          o 最好对LVS有一定的初步认识。
    * 联系人：夏清然，138 1141 0476
    * 感谢：章文嵩博士，新浪网。

http://www.zeuux.org/community/zeuux-salon.cn.html#6th

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From kongjianjun在gmail.com  Tue May 27 12:39:56 2008
From: kongjianjun在gmail.com (Jianjun Kong)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 12:39:56 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <20080527031152.GA22208@fwolf>
References: <483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>
	<483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>
	<eac7fba60805261048t62899b64q89b686f841fea2ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080527031152.GA22208@fwolf>
Message-ID: <20080527043956.GA5640@ubuntu>

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:11:52AM +0800, Fwolf wrote:
>是的，mutt的附件文件名编码格式是最严格的，
>发过去gmail都不认（原因是gmail不兼容）
>所以发中文附件一般我都是直接到gmail里面发，
>要不别人收到后就大叫“乱码。。。。”

mutt 配置文件~/.muttrc 里有这么一项

# 解决中文附件名为乱码的问题
set rfc2047_parameters=yes

---
我用 mutt，收到的中文附件一直没任何乱码

-- 
| Jianjun Kong | www.kongove.cn

From fwolfcn在gmail.com  Tue May 27 15:09:10 2008
From: fwolfcn在gmail.com (Fwolf)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:09:10 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <20080527043956.GA5640@ubuntu>
References: <08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>
	<483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>
	<eac7fba60805261048t62899b64q89b686f841fea2ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080527031152.GA22208@fwolf> <20080527043956.GA5640@ubuntu>
Message-ID: <20080527070910.GD22208@fwolf>

这是收信，发信的时候mutt还是用最“标准”的编码方式
这样别人收到以后就看到乱码了。

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 12:39:56PM +0800, Jianjun Kong wrote:
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:11:52AM +0800, Fwolf wrote:
> >是的，mutt的附件文件名编码格式是最严格的，
> >发过去gmail都不认（原因是gmail不兼容）
> >所以发中文附件一般我都是直接到gmail里面发，
> >要不别人收到后就大叫“乱码。。。。”
> 
> mutt 配置文件~/.muttrc 里有这么一项
> 
> # 解决中文附件名为乱码的问题
> set rfc2047_parameters=yes
> 
> ---
> 我用 mutt，收到的中文附件一直没任何乱码
> 
> -- 
> | Jianjun Kong | www.kongove.cn

-- 
http://www.fwolf.com/
The Public is merely a multiplied "me."
		-- Mark Twain
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From qingran在zeuux.org  Tue May 27 15:21:56 2008
From: qingran在zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:21:56 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe] =?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
 =?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1vc3Qg?=
 =?utf-8?q?Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
Message-ID: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>

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From julien.gong在gmail.com  Tue May 27 15:24:55 2008
From: julien.gong在gmail.com (Julien GONG Min (Gmail))
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:24:55 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W0NQeVVHOjUyNTk4XSBbT1Rd5YWr5Y2m5LiA?=
	=?utf-8?b?5LiL77yM5aSn5a626YO955So5LuA5LmI5pys5pys5ZWK77yf?=
In-Reply-To: <ce77ec000805262050i5d083fbbh46427b5a954ac8f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<b64ef0ce0805262044k260251d6h7b469e49f803574@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce77ec000805262050i5d083fbbh46427b5a954ac8f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97be3a2f0805270024h5cd18e4ci6f82c634ada92303@mail.gmail.com>

用着习惯就行，我推荐轻便一些的本子，如果是经常在外面跑的话。

On 5/27/08, Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 我下一个本准备买MacBookPro。
> 现在是3年前买的Dell M70，对Linux等开源东西支持还行，NV显卡，Broadcom
> GbitEthernet（tg3驱动），ipw2200 wifi，csr bluetooth。
>
> 2008/5/27 Qiangning Hong <hongqn在gmail.com>:
> > 2008/5/27 Hamo <hamo.by在gmail.com>:
> >> 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。
> >
> > MacBook Pro
> >
> > --
> > Qiangning Hong
> > http://www.douban.com/people/hongqn/
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards
> Harry Li
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org




-- 
Julien, GONG Min
clie.com.cn/blog

Google Talk: Julien.Gong在gmail.com
MSN: gongmin在x263.net
Sina UC: 103327
Tel: +8610 6267 5933
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From julien.gong在gmail.com  Tue May 27 15:31:15 2008
From: julien.gong在gmail.com (Julien GONG Min (Gmail))
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:31:15 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
	=?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1v?=
	=?utf-8?q?st_Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>

用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo，信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要，反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。-
需要的人会看的，而且这种人在中国很多很多……

On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran在zeuux.org> wrote:
>
> 原文见：
>
> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
>
>
> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap? May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comments>
>
> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope
> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
>
> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak
> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site
> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a
> good website yet, huh?"
>
> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh
> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought,
> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be
> successful building B2C websites in China!"
>
> Boy, was I wrong.
>
> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of
> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but
> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in
> detail.
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page.jpg>
>
> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above
> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down).
>
> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news site:
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/ny-times-home-page.jpg>
>
> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a
> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site
> in the US:
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page.jpg>
>
> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch,
> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once
> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page-long.jpg>
>
> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page-long.jpg>
>
> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages
> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-vs-nyt-vs-sina.jpg>
>
> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites.
> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese
> guys will figure that out sooner or later."
>
> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take on
> the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The
> home page is just navigation."
>
> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese
> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans)
> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I
> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in
> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak
> English natively].
>
> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read",
> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a
> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition,
> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely
> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy
> phrases) and look at arresting photos.
>
> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users
> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online
> business?"
>
> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen<http://www.useit.com/>,
> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic.
> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability
> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b)
> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of
> this post).
>
> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you
> know someone, please let me know.
>
> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the
> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring
> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts
> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers??
>
> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
>
> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i
> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in
> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago
> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer
> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing
> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
>
> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the
> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not?
> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how
> their readers want to read?
>
> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online,
> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique
> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
>
> I think the answer is yes.
>
> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For example,
> an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In China, most
> online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an ad on the
> home page for one month."
>
> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing
> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page
> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In
> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page
> longer.
>
> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China moves
> to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense? Or
> has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density? If
> so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were?
>
> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I
> find them. I'd love to hear what you think!
>
> *Tags:* Chinese internet explained<http://www.melcherruwart.com/category/chinese-internet-explained/>
> 13 responses so far ↓
>
>    -
>
>    1<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-142>
>    *John <http://www.sinosplice.com/life/> *// May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
>
>    It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first
>    to notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to
>    search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries:
>
>    http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
>
>    http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
>
>    http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
>    -
>
>    2<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-148>
>    *Florian Pihs <http://longmarch.chinalytics.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at
>    12:17 am
>
>    Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same
>    questions hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites
>    differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles
>    remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no
>    engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame
>    it on Sina or the lack of usability research.
>    -
>
>    3<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-155>
>    *Fons Tuinstra <http://www.chinaherald.net/> *// May 27, 2008 at 4:45
>    am
>
>    I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what
>    your readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best
>    way to get a message across.
>    I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting
>    discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in
>    Poland:
>
>    http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
>    They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that
>    some of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over
>    the years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a
>    problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
>    Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
>    transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
>    conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for
>    different ways of reading.
>    In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not
>    trained (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits
>    might never have had a root to start with.
>    -
>
>    4<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-156>
>    *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
>
>    Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the
>    same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject!
>    -
>
>    5<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-157>
>    *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 8:51
>    am
>
>    Here is my guess.
>    I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new
>    users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or
>    inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly
>    on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as
>    possible up to the top-level of the major websites.
>    >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in
>    China.
>    -
>
>    6<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-158>
>    *Kaiser Kuo <http://digitalwatch.ogilvy.com.cn/en> *// May 27, 2008 at
>    9:04 am
>
>    When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I
>    hired a Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean,
>    elegant interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?"
>    from our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was
>    initially with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But
>    then a friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail
>    experience," Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things
>    falling off the shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like
>    there's a sale on." He suggested that this experience preference translates
>    well onto the web as well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study
>    would be great. I have a hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when
>    native readers of Chinese take in text, it's in a very different way than
>    English readers do, and there's simply more tolerance for what English
>    readers see as clutter.
>    -
>
>    7<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-159>
>    *Thijs *// May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
>
>    I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at
>    pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen
>    some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information,
>    which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a
>    more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it
>    is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best
>    design.
>    -
>
>    8<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-162>
>    *Gemme <http://www.chinasnippets.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
>
>    A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters
>    I have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially
>    in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go
>    Western.
>
>    My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the
>    best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My
>    hunch is it that it will also change over time.
>
>    One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising
>    per day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads)
>    will be replaced with more mature models that actually convert.
>    Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot
>    of the so called web 2.0 design happening.
>
>    I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking
>    testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very
>    expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit.
>
>    I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused
>    on the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
>    http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
>    Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a
>    rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
>    -
>
>    9<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-166>
>    *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 12:29
>    pm
>
>    It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
>    differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan,
>    Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts.
>    -
>
>    10<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-167>
>    *cerebus <http://aityt.blogspot.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
>
>    I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new
>    window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one
>    reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints
>    in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it
>    annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to
>    me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your
>    whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the
>    same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I
>    don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more
>    likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only
>    need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a
>    millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to
>    complain anyway.
>
>    (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion.
>    Rather address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
>    -
>
>    11<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-173>
>    *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
>
>    Cerebus,
>
>    Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
>
>    I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I
>    hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time,
>    and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to
>    be taking notice.
>
>    Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer
>    highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of
>    abundance", which is an interesting metaphor.
>
>    Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web
>    companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web
>    design" is global…
>
>    Thanks again!
>    -
>
>    12<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-174>
>    *Robert Ness <http://www.jobdou.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
>
>    I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It
>    all comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of
>    Sina".
>
>    Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people
>    have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet
>    successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom
>    of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a
>    boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on
>    the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets
>    high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!"
>
>    Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of
>    explicit motivations.
>    -
>
>    13<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-178>
>    *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
>
>    Robert,
>
>    I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with
>    culture instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a
>    fortune cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as
>    makin' money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
>
>
> --
> 夏清然
> Xia Qingranqingran在zeuux.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
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>
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> http://www.zeuux.org
>



-- 
Julien, GONG Min
clie.com.cn/blog

Google Talk: Julien.Gong在gmail.com
MSN: gongmin在x263.net
Sina UC: 103327
Tel: +8610 6267 5933
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From harryl.byread在gmail.com  Tue May 27 15:34:05 2008
From: harryl.byread在gmail.com (Harry Li)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:34:05 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
	=?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1v?=
	=?utf-8?q?st_Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
	<97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>

网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~

2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong at gmail.com>:
> 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo，信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要，反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。-
> 需要的人会看的，而且这种人在中国很多很多……
>
> On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote:
>>
>> 原文见：
>>
>> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
>>
>>
>> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap?
>>
>> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments
>>
>> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope
>> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
>>
>> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak
>> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site
>> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a
>> good website yet, huh?"
>>
>> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh
>> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought,
>> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be
>> successful building B2C websites in China!"
>>
>> Boy, was I wrong.
>>
>> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of
>> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but
>> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in
>> detail.
>>
>> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above
>> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down).
>>
>> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news
>> site:
>>
>> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a
>> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site
>> in the US:
>>
>> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch,
>> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once
>> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
>>
>> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
>>
>> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages
>> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
>>
>> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites.
>> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese
>> guys will figure that out sooner or later."
>>
>> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take
>> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The
>> home page is just navigation."
>>
>> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese
>> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans)
>> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I
>> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in
>> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak
>> English natively].
>>
>> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read",
>> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a
>> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition,
>> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely
>> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy
>> phrases) and look at arresting photos.
>>
>> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users
>> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online
>> business?"
>>
>> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen,
>> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic.
>> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability
>> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b)
>> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of
>> this post).
>>
>> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you
>> know someone, please let me know.
>>
>> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the
>> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring
>> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts
>> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers??
>>
>> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
>>
>> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i
>> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in
>> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago
>> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer
>> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing
>> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
>>
>> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the
>> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not?
>> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how
>> their readers want to read?
>>
>> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online,
>> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique
>> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
>>
>> I think the answer is yes.
>>
>> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For
>> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In
>> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an
>> ad on the home page for one month."
>>
>> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing
>> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page
>> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In
>> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page
>> longer.
>>
>> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China
>> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense?
>> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density?
>> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were?
>>
>> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I
>> find them. I'd love to hear what you think!
>>
>> Tags: Chinese internet explained
>>
>> 13 responses so far ↓
>>
>> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
>>
>> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to
>> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to
>> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries:
>>
>> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
>>
>> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
>>
>> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
>>
>> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am
>>
>> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions
>> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites
>> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles
>> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no
>> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame
>> it on Sina or the lack of usability research.
>>
>> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am
>>
>> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your
>> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way
>> to get a message across.
>> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting
>> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in
>> Poland:
>>
>> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
>> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some
>> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the
>> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a
>> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
>> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
>> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
>> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for
>> different ways of reading.
>> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained
>> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might
>> never have had a root to start with.
>>
>> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
>>
>> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the
>> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject!
>>
>> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am
>>
>> Here is my guess.
>> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new
>> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or
>> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly
>> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as
>> possible up to the top-level of the major websites.
>> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in
>> China.
>>
>> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am
>>
>> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a
>> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant
>> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from
>> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially
>> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a
>> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience,"
>> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the
>> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on."
>> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as
>> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a
>> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese
>> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and
>> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter.
>>
>> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
>>
>> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at
>> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen
>> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information,
>> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a
>> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it
>> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best
>> design.
>>
>> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
>>
>> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I
>> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially
>> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go
>> Western.
>>
>> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the
>> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My
>> hunch is it that it will also change over time.
>>
>> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per
>> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will
>> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert.
>> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of
>> the so called web 2.0 design happening.
>>
>> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking
>> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very
>> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit.
>>
>> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on
>> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
>> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
>> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a
>> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
>>
>> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm
>>
>> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
>> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan,
>> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts.
>>
>> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
>>
>> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new
>> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one
>> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints
>> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it
>> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to
>> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your
>> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the
>> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I
>> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more
>> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only
>> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a
>> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to
>> complain anyway.
>>
>> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather
>> address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
>>
>> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
>>
>> Cerebus,
>>
>> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
>>
>> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I
>> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time,
>> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to
>> be taking notice.
>>
>> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer
>> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of
>> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor.
>>
>> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web
>> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web
>> design" is global…
>>
>> Thanks again!
>>
>> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
>>
>> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all
>> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of
>> Sina".
>>
>> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people
>> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet
>> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom
>> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a
>> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on
>> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets
>> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!"
>>
>> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit
>> motivations.
>>
>> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture
>> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune
>> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin'
>> money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
>>
>> --
>> 夏清然
>> Xia Qingran
>> qingran at zeuux.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
> --
> Julien, GONG Min
> clie.com.cn/blog
>
> Google Talk: Julien.Gong at gmail.com
> MSN: gongmin at x263.net
> Sina UC: 103327
> Tel: +8610 6267 5933
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>



-- 
Best Regards
Harry Li

From qingran在zeuux.org  Tue May 27 15:36:15 2008
From: qingran在zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:36:15 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
 =?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <20080527070910.GD22208@fwolf>
References: <08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>	<eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>	<483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>	<eac7fba60805261048t62899b64q89b686f841fea2ff@mail.gmail.com>	<20080527031152.GA22208@fwolf>
	<20080527043956.GA5640@ubuntu> <20080527070910.GD22208@fwolf>
Message-ID: <483BB9EF.5050508@zeuux.org>

哈哈，咱们邮件列表中的E-mail行家真是不少 :D

E-mail的编码一直就是个比较扯的问题，一来因为邮件能够承载信息的类型在不断 
增加导致RFC中针对对邮件编码规范很多、很杂，并且有太多的非强制性规范；二 
来很多客户端不太符合RFC协议，但是却被用户大量使用。比如著名的Foxmail和 
Outlook Express还有一些网站的webmail，这些都导致了很多不得不向这些错误妥 
协workaround....

Fwolf wrote:
> 这是收信，发信的时候mutt还是用最“标准”的编码方式
> 这样别人收到以后就看到乱码了。
>
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 12:39:56PM +0800, Jianjun Kong wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:11:52AM +0800, Fwolf wrote:
>>     
>>> 是的，mutt的附件文件名编码格式是最严格的，
>>> 发过去gmail都不认（原因是gmail不兼容）
>>> 所以发中文附件一般我都是直接到gmail里面发，
>>> 要不别人收到后就大叫“乱码。。。。”
>>>       
>> mutt 配置文件~/.muttrc 里有这么一项
>>
>> # 解决中文附件名为乱码的问题
>> set rfc2047_parameters=yes
>>
>> ---
>> 我用 mutt，收到的中文附件一直没任何乱码
>>
>> -- 
>> | Jianjun Kong | www.kongove.cn
>>     
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
夏清然
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From qingran在zeuux.org  Tue May 27 15:37:28 2008
From: qingran在zeuux.org (Xia Qingran)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:37:28 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
 =?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1vc3Qg?=
 =?utf-8?q?Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>	
	<97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <483BBA38.7040609@zeuux.org>

Harry Li wrote:
> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。
> 他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
>   
哈，这句话比较经典:D
> 2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong at gmail.com>:
>   
>> 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo，信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要，反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。-
>> 需要的人会看的，而且这种人在中国很多很多……
>>
>> On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote:
>>     
>>> 原文见：
>>>
>>> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap?
>>>
>>> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments
>>>
>>> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope
>>> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
>>>
>>> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak
>>> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site
>>> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a
>>> good website yet, huh?"
>>>
>>> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh
>>> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought,
>>> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be
>>> successful building B2C websites in China!"
>>>
>>> Boy, was I wrong.
>>>
>>> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of
>>> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but
>>> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in
>>> detail.
>>>
>>> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above
>>> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down).
>>>
>>> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news
>>> site:
>>>
>>> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a
>>> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site
>>> in the US:
>>>
>>> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch,
>>> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once
>>> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
>>>
>>> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
>>>
>>> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages
>>> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
>>>
>>> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites.
>>> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese
>>> guys will figure that out sooner or later."
>>>
>>> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take
>>> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The
>>> home page is just navigation."
>>>
>>> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese
>>> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans)
>>> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I
>>> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in
>>> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak
>>> English natively].
>>>
>>> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read",
>>> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a
>>> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition,
>>> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely
>>> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy
>>> phrases) and look at arresting photos.
>>>
>>> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users
>>> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online
>>> business?"
>>>
>>> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen,
>>> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic.
>>> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability
>>> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b)
>>> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of
>>> this post).
>>>
>>> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you
>>> know someone, please let me know.
>>>
>>> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the
>>> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring
>>> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts
>>> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers??
>>>
>>> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
>>>
>>> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i
>>> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in
>>> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago
>>> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer
>>> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing
>>> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
>>>
>>> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the
>>> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not?
>>> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how
>>> their readers want to read?
>>>
>>> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online,
>>> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique
>>> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
>>>
>>> I think the answer is yes.
>>>
>>> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For
>>> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In
>>> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an
>>> ad on the home page for one month."
>>>
>>> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing
>>> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page
>>> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In
>>> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page
>>> longer.
>>>
>>> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China
>>> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense?
>>> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density?
>>> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were?
>>>
>>> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I
>>> find them. I'd love to hear what you think!
>>>
>>> Tags: Chinese internet explained
>>>
>>> 13 responses so far ↓
>>>
>>> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
>>>
>>> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to
>>> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to
>>> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries:
>>>
>>> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
>>>
>>> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
>>>
>>> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
>>>
>>> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am
>>>
>>> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions
>>> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites
>>> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles
>>> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no
>>> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame
>>> it on Sina or the lack of usability research.
>>>
>>> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am
>>>
>>> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your
>>> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way
>>> to get a message across.
>>> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting
>>> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in
>>> Poland:
>>>
>>> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
>>> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some
>>> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the
>>> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a
>>> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
>>> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
>>> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
>>> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for
>>> different ways of reading.
>>> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained
>>> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might
>>> never have had a root to start with.
>>>
>>> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
>>>
>>> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the
>>> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject!
>>>
>>> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am
>>>
>>> Here is my guess.
>>> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new
>>> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or
>>> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly
>>> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as
>>> possible up to the top-level of the major websites.
>>> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in
>>> China.
>>>
>>> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am
>>>
>>> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a
>>> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant
>>> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from
>>> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially
>>> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a
>>> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience,"
>>> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the
>>> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on."
>>> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as
>>> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a
>>> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese
>>> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and
>>> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter.
>>>
>>> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
>>>
>>> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at
>>> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen
>>> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information,
>>> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a
>>> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it
>>> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best
>>> design.
>>>
>>> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
>>>
>>> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I
>>> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially
>>> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go
>>> Western.
>>>
>>> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the
>>> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My
>>> hunch is it that it will also change over time.
>>>
>>> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per
>>> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will
>>> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert.
>>> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of
>>> the so called web 2.0 design happening.
>>>
>>> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking
>>> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very
>>> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit.
>>>
>>> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on
>>> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
>>> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
>>> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a
>>> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
>>>
>>> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
>>> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan,
>>> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts.
>>>
>>> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
>>>
>>> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new
>>> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one
>>> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints
>>> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it
>>> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to
>>> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your
>>> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the
>>> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I
>>> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more
>>> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only
>>> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a
>>> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to
>>> complain anyway.
>>>
>>> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather
>>> address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
>>>
>>> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
>>>
>>> Cerebus,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
>>>
>>> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I
>>> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time,
>>> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to
>>> be taking notice.
>>>
>>> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer
>>> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of
>>> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor.
>>>
>>> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web
>>> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web
>>> design" is global…
>>>
>>> Thanks again!
>>>
>>> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
>>>
>>> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all
>>> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of
>>> Sina".
>>>
>>> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people
>>> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet
>>> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom
>>> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a
>>> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on
>>> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets
>>> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!"
>>>
>>> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit
>>> motivations.
>>>
>>> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
>>>
>>> Robert,
>>>
>>> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture
>>> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune
>>> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin'
>>> money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
>>>
>>> --
>>> 夏清然
>>> Xia Qingran
>>> qingran at zeuux.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>
>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>>       
>>
>> --
>> Julien, GONG Min
>> clie.com.cn/blog
>>
>> Google Talk: Julien.Gong at gmail.com
>> MSN: gongmin at x263.net
>> Sina UC: 103327
>> Tel: +8610 6267 5933
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   


-- 
夏清然
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org


From zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com  Tue May 27 15:39:00 2008
From: zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com (Zhengpeng Hou)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:39:00 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <20080527070910.GD22208@fwolf>
References: <08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>
	<483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>
	<eac7fba60805261048t62899b64q89b686f841fea2ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080527031152.GA22208@fwolf> <20080527043956.GA5640@ubuntu>
	<20080527070910.GD22208@fwolf>
Message-ID: <bf0bb42f0805270039w217ec17ne72f8db14d224214@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Fwolf <fwolfcn at gmail.com>:
> 这是收信，发信的时候mutt还是用最"标准"的编码方式
> 这样别人收到以后就看到乱码了。
绝对是你自己的问题，我用mutt给很多gmail的发信，没任何问题

From zhwu.cn在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:00:07 2008
From: zhwu.cn在gmail.com (zhenhua wu)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:00:07 -0700
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?gb2312?b?W09UXbDL2NTSu8/Co6y087zStrzTw8qyw7Q=?=
	=?gb2312?b?sb6xvrCho78=?=
In-Reply-To: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c4b14be0805270100k4bf40df1p40703418f7ed6ebe@mail.gmail.com>

可以试一试 dell 新出的 vostro 1310 大陆应该 也开始 销售了 按照 vostro 1x00系列对linux的支持
1x10系列也该不错，薄了也轻了 吸入式光驱 价格 也不高，带着方便。

2008/5/26 Hamo <hamo.by at gmail.com>:v
> 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>
> Name:白杨
> Nick Name:Hamo
> Website:http://hamobai.com
> Blog: http://blog.hamobai.com
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org

From lymanrb在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:09:36 2008
From: lymanrb在gmail.com (Lyman)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:09:36 +0900
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
 =?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1vc3Qg?=
 =?utf-8?q?Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
Message-ID: <483BC1C0.20302@gmail.com>

Xia Qingran 写道:
> 原文见：
> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
> 
> 
>     Why do most Chinese sites look like crap?
有日本友人问过我这个问题，恰巧举例也是新浪。当时我想了想说，大概中国的网 
民还是习惯把这种门户页面当成报纸来看吧。

> 
> 
>         May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments
>         <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comments>
> 
> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I 
> hope it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
> 
> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don’t speak 
> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — “Wow! That 
> site sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven’t learned how to 
> design a good website yet, huh?”
> 
> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, 
> fresh from the “cutting-edge” of web design in the Bay Area. “Surely,” I 
> thought, “my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I’ll 
> be successful building B2C websites in China!”
> 
> Boy, was I wrong.
> 
> In case you don’t know what I’m talking about, look at the home page of 
> China’s most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, 
> but things haven’t changed much). You can click on the image to see it 
> in detail.
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page.jpg>
> 
> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see “above 
> the fold” (in other words, without scrolling down).
> 
> Now, here’s the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news site:
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/ny-times-home-page.jpg>
> 
> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a “portal” and not really 
> a news site, here’s the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal 
> site in the US:
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page.jpg>
> 
> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch, 
> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once 
> again, here’s the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page-long.jpg>
> 
> Here’s the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page-long.jpg>
> 
> In case my point isn’t clear, below I’ve placed the full-length web 
> pages of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-vs-nyt-vs-sina.jpg>
> 
> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: “Yep. Love those US 
> sites. Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess 
> those Chinese guys will figure that out sooner or later.”
> 
> What’s fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take 
> on the US sites: “They look skimpy, and empty. Where’s all the content?? 
> The home page is just navigation.”
> 
> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that 
> Chinese and American (I won’t say “Western” since I don’t know much 
> about Europeans) look at/read websites in very different ways. [To 
> forestall critics, when I say "Americans" I mean native English speakers 
> and readers who live in America, even though there are obviously many 
> Americans who don't speak English natively].
> 
> While it’s clear that both peoples “scan,” and then only sometimes 
> “read”, the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly 
> prefer a density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In 
> addition, Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more 
> precisely “key-characters”), while Americans like to read “headlines” 
> (aka short pithy phrases) and look at arresting photos.
> 
> So here’s my question: “Do Chinese online users and American online 
> users scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean 
> for online business?”
> 
> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen 
> <http://www.useit.com/>, the famous web usability expert, if he knew of 
> any research on this topic. His simple answer: “No.” He suggested I 
> attend his upcoming usability workshop, which looks cool but is (a) 
> beyond my price point and (b) potentially not relevant for the Chinese 
> market (which is the whole point of this post).
> 
> I can’t find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you 
> know someone, please let me know.
> 
> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the 
> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring 
> budget to fund this. I’ve approached a friend at the Chinese Central 
> Arts University, but they don’t have the technology. Any takers??
> 
> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
> 
> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i 
> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences 
> in information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years 
> ago were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are 
> no longer vast differences between the layout and visual density of the 
> top Beijing newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
> 
> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the 
> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not? 
> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with 
> how their readers want to read?
> 
> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online, 
> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique 
> “online” circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
> 
> I think the answer is yes.
> 
> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by “page view”. For 
> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In 
> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in “buy 
> an ad on the home page for one month.”
> 
> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing 
> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want “more 
> page views per visit”, because that’s how you create advertising 
> inventory. In China, you create more advertising inventory by making 
> your home page longer.
> 
> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China 
> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less 
> dense? Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to 
> super-high density? If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as 
> dense as they were?
> 
> By now I hope you’re starting to find these questions as interesting as 
> I find them. I’d love to hear what you think!
> 
> *Tags:* Chinese internet explained 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/category/chinese-internet-explained/>
> 
> 
>       13 responses so far ↓
> 
>     *
> 
>       1
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-142>
>       *John <http://www.sinosplice.com/life/> * // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
> 
>       It is an interesting question. You’re right that you aren’t the
>       first to notice this, but given the keywords involved, it’s a bit
>       problematic to search for the topic. Here are a few other
>       commentaries:
> 
>       http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
> 
>       http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
> 
>       http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
> 
>     *
> 
>       2
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-148>
>       *Florian Pihs <http://longmarch.chinalytics.com> * // May 27, 2008
>       at 12:17 am
> 
>       Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same
>       questions hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage
>       with websites differently that their western counterparts, basic
>       web design principles remain intact (but are largely ignored by
>       most local sites) e.g. there is no engagement after the 3rd
>       screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame it on Sina or
>       the lack of usability research.
> 
>     *
> 
>       3
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-155>
>       *Fons Tuinstra <http://www.chinaherald.net> * // May 27, 2008 at
>       4:45 am
> 
>       I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about
>       what your readers want, how to they absorb their information and
>       what is the best way to get a message across.
>       I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an
>       interesting discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the
>       largest broadsheet in Poland:
>       http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
>       They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered
>       that some of the standard assumption on how people read a website
>       had change over the years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional
>       webdesign) did not seem to be a problem and people did not read
>       anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
>       Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
>       transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
>       conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open
>       for different ways of reading.
>       In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not
>       trained (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning
>       reading habits might never have had a root to start with.
> 
>     *
> 
>       4
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-156>
>       *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
> 
>       Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles
>       on the same subject. I’d love to find more people interested in
>       this subject!
> 
>     *
> 
>       5
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-157>
>       *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com> * // May 27, 2008 at
>       8:51 am
> 
>       Here is my guess.
>       I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many
>       new users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new
>       pages or inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer
>       to click directly on text links of what they want to read. This
>       forces as much content as possible up to the top-level of the
>       major websites.
>        >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works
>       in China.
> 
>     *
> 
>       6
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-158>
>       *Kaiser Kuo <http://digitalwatch.ogilvy.com.cn/en> * // May 27,
>       2008 at 9:04 am
> 
>       When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I
>       hired a Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice,
>       clean, elegant interface–which, of course, elicited confused
>       “where’s the content?” from our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who
>       was COO of the company, was initially with me on the design issue,
>       having a preference for clean. But then a friend of his
>       straightened him out. “Look at the Chinese retail experience,”
>       Eric relayed to me. “Chinese shoppers want abundance, things
>       falling off the shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it
>       feel like there’s a sale on.” He suggested that this experience
>       preference translates well onto the web as well. He may be right!
>       Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a hunch —
>       totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of
>       Chinese take in text, it’s in a very different way than English
>       readers do, and there’s simply more tolerance for what English
>       readers see as clutter.
> 
>     *
> 
>       7
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-159>
>       *Thijs * // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
> 
>       I’ve looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look
>       at pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values.
>       I’ve also seen some heatmapping done before and people have issues
>       “finding” information, which may contribute to the viewing time.
>       Whether or not this leads to a more “pleasing” experience, I would
>       not be able to say. I think part of it is just, what people are
>       used to (habits) and not what would be the best design.
> 
>     *
> 
>       8
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-162>
>       *Gemme <http://www.chinasnippets.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
> 
>       A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other
>       commenters I have struggled with the concept behind all the
>       cluttered pages. Especially in cases that I had to advice clients
>       on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go Western.
> 
>       My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be
>       the best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment
>       or else. My hunch is it that it will also change over time.
> 
>       One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated
>       “advertising per day” model (no incentive to change as a longer
>       page can carry more ads) will be replaced with more mature models
>       that actually convert.
>       Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there’s aready a
>       lot of the so called web 2.0 design happening.
> 
>       I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye
>       tracking testing but for now their Chinese office doesn’ do this
>       yet as it’s very expensive and clients are’nt yet at the stage
>       that they see the benefit.
> 
>       I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was
>       focused on the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
>       http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
>       Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages
>       have a rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
> 
>     *
> 
>       9
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-166>
>       *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com> * // May 27, 2008 at
>       12:29 pm
> 
>       It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
>       differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in
>       Taiwan, Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face
>       cluttered layouts.
> 
>     *
> 
>       10
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-167>
>       *cerebus <http://aityt.blogspot.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
> 
>       I’ve always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a
>       new window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is
>       that one reason for the clutter is that there isn’t a culture of
>       consumer complaints in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So
>       although people might find it annoying, they’ll be hard-pressed to
>       actually complain. It always seems to me Chinese websites just
>       aren’t considerate, and want to take over your whole screen and
>       browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the same:
>       it’s not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row.
>       I don’t think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold
>       water: more likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame.
>       The old story: you only need to sell something once to every
>       Chinese person and you’ll be a millionaire. Who cares if some
>       people are annoyed? They’re not going to complain anyway.
> 
>       (Please don’t attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion.
>       Rather address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
> 
>     *
> 
>       11
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-173>
>       *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
> 
>       Cerebus,
> 
>       Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
> 
>       I don’t quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints
>       here. I hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer
>       experiences all the time, and the BBSes are full of horror
>       stories. And lately more companies seem to be taking notice.
> 
>       Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do
>       prefer highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called
>       it a “theory of abundance”, which is an interesting metaphor.
> 
>       Bottom line is that I don’t know. But I’ve seen too many foreign
>       web companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by
>       assuming “good web design” is global…
> 
>       Thanks again!
> 
>     *
> 
>       12
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-174>
>       *Robert Ness <http://www.jobdou.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
> 
>       I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument.
>       It all comes down to a sales person saying–”your ad gets on the
>       front page of Sina”.
> 
>       Let’s not forget about the simple power of doing things the way
>       people have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first
>       big internet successes in China, so most new websites aren’t going
>       to question the wisdom of their UI design. And when your a media
>       buyer who is accountable to a boss, which is easier to say if
>       things don’t go well, “I placed the ad on the front page of Sina!”
>       or “I placed the ad on an archived page that gets high page views
>       from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!”
> 
>       Let’s avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of
>       explicit motivations.
> 
>     *
> 
>       13
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-178>
>       *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
> 
>       Robert,
> 
>       I love what you wrote: “avoid the trap of explaining things with
>       culture instead of explicit motivations”. sounds like the inside
>       of a fortune cookie. Seriously. I’ve also thought that basic
>       motivations (such as makin’ money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
> 
> 
> -- 
> 夏清然
> Xia Qingran
> qingran在zeuux.org
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> 
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From zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:15:51 2008
From: zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com (Zhengpeng Hou)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:15:51 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
	=?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1v?=
	=?utf-8?q?st_Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
	<97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf0bb42f0805270115r11699caax15112797e3394209@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>:
> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。

From chris.corsair在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:16:12 2008
From: chris.corsair在gmail.com (Corsair)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:16:12 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W09UXeWFq+WNpuS4gOS4i++8jOWkp+Wutg==?=
	=?utf-8?b?6YO955So5LuA5LmI5pys5pys5ZWK77yf?=
In-Reply-To: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080527081612.GA5314@Fity.domain>

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:42:04AM +0800, Hamo wrote:
> 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。

MacBook.

> -- 
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
> 
> Name:白杨
> Nick Name:Hamo
> Website:http://hamobai.com
> Blog: http://blog.hamobai.com
> _______________________________________________
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> 
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> http://www.zeuux.org
-- 
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.

From chris.corsair在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:17:50 2008
From: chris.corsair在gmail.com (Corsair)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:17:50 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
	=?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1v?=
	=?utf-8?q?st_Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
	<97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080527081750.GB5314@Fity.domain>

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 03:34:05PM +0800, Harry Li wrote:
> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~

我觉得确实都是 crap...

> 2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong在gmail.com>:
> > 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo，信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要，反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。-
> > 需要的人会看的，而且这种人在中国很多很多……
> >
> > On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran在zeuux.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> 原文见：
> >>
> >> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
> >>
> >>
> >> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap?
> >>
> >> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments
> >>
> >> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope
> >> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
> >>
> >> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak
> >> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site
> >> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a
> >> good website yet, huh?"
> >>
> >> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh
> >> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought,
> >> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be
> >> successful building B2C websites in China!"
> >>
> >> Boy, was I wrong.
> >>
> >> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of
> >> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but
> >> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in
> >> detail.
> >>
> >> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above
> >> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down).
> >>
> >> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news
> >> site:
> >>
> >> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a
> >> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site
> >> in the US:
> >>
> >> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch,
> >> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once
> >> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
> >>
> >> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
> >>
> >> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages
> >> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
> >>
> >> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites.
> >> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese
> >> guys will figure that out sooner or later."
> >>
> >> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take
> >> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The
> >> home page is just navigation."
> >>
> >> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese
> >> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans)
> >> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I
> >> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in
> >> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak
> >> English natively].
> >>
> >> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read",
> >> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a
> >> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition,
> >> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely
> >> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy
> >> phrases) and look at arresting photos.
> >>
> >> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users
> >> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online
> >> business?"
> >>
> >> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen,
> >> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic.
> >> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability
> >> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b)
> >> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of
> >> this post).
> >>
> >> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you
> >> know someone, please let me know.
> >>
> >> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the
> >> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring
> >> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts
> >> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers??
> >>
> >> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
> >>
> >> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i
> >> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in
> >> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago
> >> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer
> >> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing
> >> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
> >>
> >> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the
> >> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not?
> >> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how
> >> their readers want to read?
> >>
> >> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online,
> >> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique
> >> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
> >>
> >> I think the answer is yes.
> >>
> >> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For
> >> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In
> >> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an
> >> ad on the home page for one month."
> >>
> >> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing
> >> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page
> >> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In
> >> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page
> >> longer.
> >>
> >> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China
> >> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense?
> >> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density?
> >> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were?
> >>
> >> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I
> >> find them. I'd love to hear what you think!
> >>
> >> Tags: Chinese internet explained
> >>
> >> 13 responses so far ↓
> >>
> >> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
> >>
> >> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to
> >> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to
> >> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries:
> >>
> >> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
> >>
> >> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
> >>
> >> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
> >>
> >> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am
> >>
> >> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions
> >> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites
> >> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles
> >> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no
> >> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame
> >> it on Sina or the lack of usability research.
> >>
> >> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am
> >>
> >> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your
> >> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way
> >> to get a message across.
> >> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting
> >> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in
> >> Poland:
> >>
> >> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
> >> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some
> >> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the
> >> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a
> >> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
> >> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
> >> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
> >> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for
> >> different ways of reading.
> >> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained
> >> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might
> >> never have had a root to start with.
> >>
> >> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
> >>
> >> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the
> >> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject!
> >>
> >> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am
> >>
> >> Here is my guess.
> >> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new
> >> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or
> >> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly
> >> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as
> >> possible up to the top-level of the major websites.
> >> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in
> >> China.
> >>
> >> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am
> >>
> >> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a
> >> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant
> >> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from
> >> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially
> >> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a
> >> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience,"
> >> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the
> >> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on."
> >> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as
> >> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a
> >> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese
> >> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and
> >> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter.
> >>
> >> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
> >>
> >> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at
> >> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen
> >> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information,
> >> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a
> >> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it
> >> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best
> >> design.
> >>
> >> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
> >>
> >> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I
> >> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially
> >> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go
> >> Western.
> >>
> >> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the
> >> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My
> >> hunch is it that it will also change over time.
> >>
> >> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per
> >> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will
> >> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert.
> >> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of
> >> the so called web 2.0 design happening.
> >>
> >> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking
> >> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very
> >> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit.
> >>
> >> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on
> >> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
> >> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
> >> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a
> >> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
> >>
> >> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm
> >>
> >> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
> >> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan,
> >> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts.
> >>
> >> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
> >>
> >> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new
> >> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one
> >> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints
> >> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it
> >> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to
> >> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your
> >> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the
> >> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I
> >> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more
> >> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only
> >> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a
> >> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to
> >> complain anyway.
> >>
> >> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather
> >> address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
> >>
> >> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
> >>
> >> Cerebus,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
> >>
> >> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I
> >> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time,
> >> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to
> >> be taking notice.
> >>
> >> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer
> >> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of
> >> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor.
> >>
> >> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web
> >> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web
> >> design" is global…
> >>
> >> Thanks again!
> >>
> >> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
> >>
> >> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all
> >> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of
> >> Sina".
> >>
> >> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people
> >> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet
> >> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom
> >> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a
> >> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on
> >> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets
> >> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!"
> >>
> >> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit
> >> motivations.
> >>
> >> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
> >>
> >> Robert,
> >>
> >> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture
> >> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune
> >> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin'
> >> money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
> >>
> >> --
> >> 夏清然
> >> Xia Qingran
> >> qingran在zeuux.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> zeuux-universe mailing list
> >> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> >> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >>
> >> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> >> http://www.zeuux.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Julien, GONG Min
> > clie.com.cn/blog
> >
> > Google Talk: Julien.Gong在gmail.com
> > MSN: gongmin在x263.net
> > Sina UC: 103327
> > Tel: +8610 6267 5933
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best Regards
> Harry Li
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
-- 
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
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From zoom.quiet在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:22:51 2008
From: zoom.quiet在gmail.com (Zoom.Quiet)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:22:51 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
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	=?utf-8?q?st_Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <bf0bb42f0805270115r11699caax15112797e3394209@mail.gmail.com>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
	<97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf0bb42f0805270115r11699caax15112797e3394209@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dad9f0a0805270122ucec9873s590aa1a09c5445ce@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com>:
>> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
> 价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了!
要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了,
SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的!

> _______________________________________________
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> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org



-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

From yinweiming在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:41:19 2008
From: yinweiming在gmail.com (Weiming Yin)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:41:19 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?gb2312?b?W09UXbDL2NTSu8/Co6y087zStrzTw8qyw7Q=?=
	=?gb2312?b?sb6xvrCho78=?=
In-Reply-To: <20080527081612.GA5314@Fity.domain>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080527081612.GA5314@Fity.domain>
Message-ID: <944d10830805270141s2d7d9f54oe0ffd8626d88a8b3@mail.gmail.com>

ThinkPad X61
本来想要T61，但是为了移动便捷要的X61，现在愈发的觉得X61好用了


On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Corsair <chris.corsair at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:42:04AM +0800, Hamo wrote:
> > 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。
>
> MacBook.
>
> > --
> > Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
> >
> > Name:白杨
> > Nick Name:Hamo
> > Website:http://hamobai.com
> > Blog: http://blog.hamobai.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
> --
> There is no emotion; there is peace.
> There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
> There is no passion; there is serenity.
> There is no death; there is the Force.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>



-- 
Weiming Yin
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From cheungtifan在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:41:51 2008
From: cheungtifan在gmail.com (Alex Zhang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:41:51 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W09UXeWFq+WNpuS4gOS4i++8jOWkp+Wutg==?=
	=?utf-8?b?6YO955So5LuA5LmI5pys5pys5ZWK77yf?=
In-Reply-To: <20080527081612.GA5314@Fity.domain>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080527081612.GA5314@Fity.domain>
Message-ID: <5fdc2ee10805270141x77136ae3r1ae554a8a45b4e55@mail.gmail.com>

学生本，HP520
On 5/27/08, Corsair <chris.corsair at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:42:04AM +0800, Hamo wrote:
>  > 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。
>
>  MacBook.
>
>
>  > --
>  > Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>  >
>  > Name:白杨
>  > Nick Name:Hamo
>  > Website:http://hamobai.com
>  > Blog: http://blog.hamobai.com
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > zeuux-universe mailing list
>  > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>  > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>  >
>  > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>  > http://www.zeuux.org
>
> --
>  There is no emotion; there is peace.
>  There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
>  There is no passion; there is serenity.
>  There is no death; there is the Force.
>
> _______________________________________________
>  zeuux-universe mailing list
>  zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>  http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
>  ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>  http://www.zeuux.org


-- 
Notes:
1. Fell free to EMail me and I'll fell free to ignore you
2. Use English or STANDARD Chinese (Traditional preferred, but
Simplified is also acceptable), or I'll certainly ignore you.
3. Use plain text, because I've gotta no rich-text processing system.
4. CheungTiFan at gmail.com is the ONLY email account I'll check everyday.

From kongjianjun在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:42:48 2008
From: kongjianjun在gmail.com (Jianjun Kong)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:42:48 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <bf0bb42f0805270039w217ec17ne72f8db14d224214@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B173B31F-E307-4C85-B27F-9C129E878645@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261019n2b1d2781u77e15b24887029b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E104083-7924-441E-A083-E5C226FE8041@gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805261032u48d290aft1ecaa4896b699737@mail.gmail.com>
	<483AF5B3.5020602@zeuux.org>
	<eac7fba60805261048t62899b64q89b686f841fea2ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080527031152.GA22208@fwolf> <20080527043956.GA5640@ubuntu>
	<20080527070910.GD22208@fwolf>
	<bf0bb42f0805270039w217ec17ne72f8db14d224214@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080527084248.GA5661@ubuntu>

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 03:39:00PM +0800, Zhengpeng Hou wrote:
>2008/5/27 Fwolf <fwolfcn在gmail.com>:
>> 这是收信，发信的时候mutt还是用最"标准"的编码方式
>> 这样别人收到以后就看到乱码了。
>绝对是你自己的问题，我用mutt给很多gmail的发信，没任何问题

so did I. 而且mutt可以结合vim可以很方便的编辑邮件内容。
-- 
| Jianjun Kong | www.kongove.cn

From zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:48:58 2008
From: zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com (Zhengpeng Hou)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:48:58 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
	=?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1v?=
	=?utf-8?q?st_Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805270122ucec9873s590aa1a09c5445ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
	<97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf0bb42f0805270115r11699caax15112797e3394209@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805270122ucec9873s590aa1a09c5445ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf0bb42f0805270148x39c5a7f0m20b76dc6dbd5d32b@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com>:
>> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>:
>>> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
>> 价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
> 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了!
> 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了,
> SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的!
君子爱财，要取之有道。
BTW: 想来这里有不少人工作于sina， 不如先建议建议你们的东家好好规范一下自家的网页  :P 似乎比那银行的行动意义更大

From lymanrb在gmail.com  Tue May 27 16:49:34 2008
From: lymanrb在gmail.com (Lyman)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:49:34 +0900
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
 =?gb2312?b?W09UXbDL2NTSu8/Co6y087zStrzTw8qyw7Q=?=
 =?gb2312?b?sb6xvrCho78=?=
In-Reply-To: <944d10830805270141s2d7d9f54oe0ffd8626d88a8b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>	<20080527081612.GA5314@Fity.domain>
	<944d10830805270141s2d7d9f54oe0ffd8626d88a8b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <483BCB1E.8060206@gmail.com>

Weiming Yin 写道:
> ThinkPad X61
> 本来想要T61，但是为了移动便捷要的X61，现在愈发的觉得X61好用了
没光驱。

> 
> 
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Corsair <chris.corsair在gmail.com 
> <mailto:chris.corsair在gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:42:04AM +0800, Hamo wrote:
>      > 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。
> 
>     MacBook.
> 
>      > --
>      > Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>     <http://mobile.google.com>
>      >
>      > Name:白杨
>      > Nick Name:Hamo
>      > Website:http://hamobai.com
>      > Blog: http://blog.hamobai.com
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > zeuux-universe mailing list
>      > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org <mailto:zeuux-universe在zeuux.org>
>      > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>      >
>      > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>      > http://www.zeuux.org
>     --
>     There is no emotion; there is peace.
>     There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
>     There is no passion; there is serenity.
>     There is no death; there is the Force.
>     _______________________________________________
>     zeuux-universe mailing list
>     zeuux-universe在zeuux.org <mailto:zeuux-universe在zeuux.org>
>     http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
>     ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>     http://www.zeuux.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Weiming Yin
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org


From yinweiming在gmail.com  Tue May 27 17:05:17 2008
From: yinweiming在gmail.com (Weiming Yin)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:05:17 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?gb2312?b?W09UXbDL2NTSu8/Co6y087zStrzTw8qyw7Q=?=
	=?gb2312?b?sb6xvrCho78=?=
In-Reply-To: <483BCB1E.8060206@gmail.com>
References: <55b9903b0805262042s4137b1c0h9585cd3c7a3b8bd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080527081612.GA5314@Fity.domain>
	<944d10830805270141s2d7d9f54oe0ffd8626d88a8b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<483BCB1E.8060206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <944d10830805270205s17e35edbi6ade9baaedbf791f@mail.gmail.com>

老兄，我最大的痛被你戳到了。我现在想重做系统，就是因为老板的usb光驱忘记放哪里了，他人也回美国了，我已经拖了半个月了。

以后装一个xp，聊天用，然后装一个vmware server（免费的）安装debian4 干活。

2008/5/27 Lyman <lymanrb at gmail.com>:

> Weiming Yin 写道:
> > ThinkPad X61
> > 本来想要T61，但是为了移动便捷要的X61，现在愈发的觉得X61好用了
> 没光驱。
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Corsair <chris.corsair at gmail.com
> > <mailto:chris.corsair at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:42:04AM +0800, Hamo wrote:
> >      > 最近要买个，所以希望参考下大家的选择。
> >
> >     MacBook.
> >
> >      > --
> >      > Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
> >     <http://mobile.google.com>
> >      >
> >      > Name:白杨
> >      > Nick Name:Hamo
> >      > Website:http://hamobai.com
> >      > Blog: http://blog.hamobai.com
> >      > _______________________________________________
> >      > zeuux-universe mailing list
> >      > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org <mailto:zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>
> >      > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >      >
> >      > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> >      > http://www.zeuux.org
> >     --
> >     There is no emotion; there is peace.
> >     There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
> >     There is no passion; there is serenity.
> >     There is no death; there is the Force.
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     zeuux-universe mailing list
> >     zeuux-universe at zeuux.org <mailto:zeuux-universe at zeuux.org>
> >     http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> >     ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> >     http://www.zeuux.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Weiming Yin
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
>
>


-- 
Weiming Yin
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From chris.corsair在gmail.com  Tue May 27 17:12:27 2008
From: chris.corsair在gmail.com (Corsair)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:12:27 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
	=?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1v?=
	=?utf-8?q?st_Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <bf0bb42f0805270148x39c5a7f0m20b76dc6dbd5d32b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
	<97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf0bb42f0805270115r11699caax15112797e3394209@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805270122ucec9873s590aa1a09c5445ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf0bb42f0805270148x39c5a7f0m20b76dc6dbd5d32b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080527091227.GC12299@Fity.domain>

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 04:48:58PM +0800, Zhengpeng Hou wrote:
> 2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>:
> > 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com>:
> >> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com>:
> >>> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
> >> 价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
> > 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了!
> > 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了,
> > SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的!
> 君子爱财，要取之有道。
> BTW: 想来这里有不少人工作于sina， 不如先建议建议你们的东家好好规范一下自家的网页  :P 似乎比那银行的行动意义更大

很多中国一般网民都从来不去国外的网站，可能都不着都正常的网页是什么样的...
要是下电驴的还好，见过 verycd.com。

> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
-- 
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
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From harryl.byread在gmail.com  Tue May 27 17:15:08 2008
From: harryl.byread在gmail.com (Harry Li)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:15:08 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?5bSp5rqD77yB5Yia55yL5Yiw5LqG5LiA5Liq?=
	=?utf-8?b?6ICB5aSW5a+55Lit5Zu9572R56uZ55qE6K+E5Lu34oCcV2h5IGRvIG1v?=
	=?utf-8?q?st_Chinese_sites_look_like_crap=3F=E2=80=9D?=
In-Reply-To: <9dad9f0a0805270122ucec9873s590aa1a09c5445ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <483BB694.9000601@zeuux.org>
	<97be3a2f0805270031ye6792a1wc51b66d915546e0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce77ec000805270034m3d5ac413hcc634580bf5d7c56@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf0bb42f0805270115r11699caax15112797e3394209@mail.gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805270122ucec9873s590aa1a09c5445ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ce77ec000805270215y3395a099w968a7378e23e8a1e@mail.gmail.com>

但是再怎么长，也要遵循经济规律。如果数百米长，那排在后面还是和第二click的页面有一比的。买家卖家都不傻~~

2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com>:
>> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>:
>>> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
>> 价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
> 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了!
> 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了,
> SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的!
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
> --
> '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
> '''http://zoomquiet.org
> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org



-- 
Best Regards
Harry Li

From jhuangjiahua在gmail.com  Tue May 27 18:27:45 2008
From: jhuangjiahua在gmail.com (Jiahua Huang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:27:45 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <009601c8bf85$42bc4750$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<4839C3B9.9010701@shlug.org>
	<200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<009601c8bf85$42bc4750$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
Message-ID: <eac7fba60805270327rd7a97d2q5e75e5bec7d625aa@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Jenny Yao <jennyyao在zeuux.org>:
> Sorry, I use utf-8 to reply on my apple. I don't know how to deal with such question of garbled because I am only a researcher and designer in the auto race track. So I have to write it in my poor english.
>

放心用中文吧

大家的客户端或 gmail web 页面基本都同时支持 8bit 和 base64 编码，
所以你 Apple Mail 的 base64 utf8 中文大家都能看的，

仅仅是某些人的 8bit utf8 中文你不能直接在 Apple Mail 看。

From jhuangjiahua在gmail.com  Tue May 27 18:30:39 2008
From: jhuangjiahua在gmail.com (Jiahua Huang)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:30:39 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <5fdc2ee10805261713vb531a98v80e2bb28ae3df829@mail.gmail.com>
References: <eac7fba60805240129q13f41311la123194276632731@mail.gmail.com>
	<200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<009601c8bf85$42bc4750$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<5fdc2ee10805261713vb531a98v80e2bb28ae3df829@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eac7fba60805270330i39c5663fi4fd41e368fbe963b@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/27 Alex Zhang <cheungtifan在gmail.com>:
> but why don't you use yellow dog linux?
> apple is always driving me crazy, for example, you could change the
> passwd of user without logging in... (znabcime, help, then u'll be
> able to change)

遇到最扯的是 Finder，
终端里创建、改名、移动 的 文件，在 Finder 里根本看不到。

From chris.corsair在gmail.com  Tue May 27 18:37:28 2008
From: chris.corsair在gmail.com (Corsair)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:37:28 +0800
Subject: [zeuux-universe]
	=?utf-8?b?W3NobHVnXSDor7fku4rlpKnljrvlpI3ml6Y=?=
	=?utf-8?b?6aqa5YyF55qE5Y+R6KGo5Zu+54mH5ZKM5oSfzL4=?=
In-Reply-To: <eac7fba60805270330i39c5663fi4fd41e368fbe963b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200805262157.51941.wangguoqin1001@gmail.com>
	<9dad9f0a0805260719v382220e1i1cff54685a8c900a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fdc2ee10805260807l7bff4b77gaee63e96ab2a0a91@mail.gmail.com>
	<006001c8bf42$cb907d50$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<483AED07.3010704@gmail.com>
	<08FCC08B-1C87-4F8A-A738-279CA5791816@gmail.com>
	<483AEEE8.8030309@gmail.com>
	<009601c8bf85$42bc4750$0201a8c0@a32ee968dfc4c4>
	<5fdc2ee10805261713vb531a98v80e2bb28ae3df829@mail.gmail.com>
	<eac7fba60805270330i39c5663fi4fd41e368fbe963b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080527103728.GA4908@Fity.domain>

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 06:30:39PM +0800, Jiahua Huang wrote:
> 2008/5/27 Alex Zhang <cheungtifan在gmail.com>:
> > but why don't you use yellow dog linux?
> > apple is always driving me